Stalingrad West! - A Red/BW joint TL

I've often wondered why the Germans didn't shoot their V-1 and V-2 rockets at the allied ports in France or even at Normandy. The distances would be shorter and they would be more accurate.

A V-2 was capable of blowing up a city block in London. Imagine even a single V-2 hitting a supply depot or ship full of fuel or ammo.

The allies have control of the air but if their planes dont have fuel, ammo, or spare parts they are grounded.
 
They did. Hundreds were shot at Antwerp harbour for example. They missed the important stuff. The targetting on those things sucked big time.
 
The Reichs Last Stand (Chapter 14)

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Warsaw, July 1944

Manstein was still finding it hard to come to grips with what had become of the German Army since the launching of Operation Barbarossa just over three years ago. Back then it had seemed for a while as if ultimate victory had only been weeks away with the Red Army dissolving before his eyes. Now, after three bitter years of tragedy and horror on both sides both sides were almost at the exact same border from which the Germans had sprung on that fateful day in June.

In 1941 however, Germany enjoyed superiority in the air, in armour, in command and at least numerical parity. Now the skies of Poland were the Red Air Forces playground, thousands of the new T-34/85's were tearing apart even the most advanced opposition, officers were mere parrots of the Fuhrer's fading grip on reality and the Red Army had more than 2 to 1 advantage on his own troops. The border may have been the same but now it was the Soviets who were coming to conquer.

The Eastern Front was pivotal for the Reich. All of his successes in the west would matter for nothing if the Wehrmacht were to collapse here. Since 1941 Germany had always committed the lions share of it's forces and logistics towards the Russian front with even major allied campaigns like Overlord and Huskey seeming like sideshows in comparison. However if the Soviet juggernaut could be halted...Germany may yet be saved.

The situation didn't seem promising however, Manstein had arrived to take command of an Army Group Centre which seemed to have acquiesced to the idea of it's own destruction just to please their demented Fuhrer who had remained convince that a no-retreat strategy continued to be the best policy, ignoring all recent history. But the disorganised mess that Army Group Centre had degenerated into did have some ironic advantages. The chaos left Hitler with an incomplete picture of what was truly going on. This allowed Manstein and Von Kluge to pull the battered but still useful 4th and 9th infantry armies and the 3rd Panzer Army back behind the San River.

The plan was explained to Hitler during these withdrawals, what seemed like a retreat was actually a great counter offensive which would push the Soviets back out of Poland and leave them begging for terms. However for such a grand plan, Army Group San (as it was becoming known) would require additional forces, especially armour. Hitler was heartened by the enthusiasm of Von Manstein and Von Kluge after countless generals had ranted about nothing except retreat, here were 2 men that could truly carry out his vision. Thus he agreed to allocate elements of the 1st Panzer Army from the Carpathians. Army Group San could now count on a force of several hundred tanks.

At the same time, the German were going to vast lengths to convince the Soviets of Army group Centres impending collapse and the desperation of OKH. Vast numbers of improvised "tanks" ( cars with grey covers over them ) and "artillery" (black painted logs on support stands) were set up on the western bank of the Vistula. Whilst known Soviet agents were leaked bountiful amounts of information about the collapse of Army Group Centre and the preparation of a new defence line on the Vistula. Army Group North would be abandoned to fend for itself unfortunately and most of Poland would be declared open country.

For the Soviets this seemed like a chance to great to be missed. The Wehrmacht were collapsing before their eyes, ceding the majority of Poland just so they could hope to recover. If the Red Army could trap the retreating remnants of Army Group Centre and then smash the skeleton force on the Vistula. If all went to plan, the Red Flag would fly over Berlin by Christmas, not that such a Bourgeoise date mattered to Stalin.

Hungry for the kill, with the stench of fascist blood warming the air. Rokossovkys 1st Belorussian Front stormed over the San, falling perfectly into the trap that had been prepared for them. Mansteins 12 fresh divisions smashed into the spearheads of the 8th Guards Army, causing heavy casualties on both sides. Backed up by the 28th, 47th, 65th, 69th, and 70th Armies Manstein was forced into a withdrawal, despite inflicting heavy losses of Rokossovsky's forces. Hungry for the kill, the arms of the front followed, only for the 3rd armoured in the north and 1st Pazer in the south to entrap 3 Soviet armies, the eigth guards, the 28th and 47th in a pocket along the river. With the front trapped, Mansteins counter attack began.

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The Soviets had no match for Manstein's Panthers

Massive artillery barges tore into Soviet troops as the T-34/85's were confronted by hundreds of the newest type Panzer 4's and Panthers. Soon the 8th Guards army was cut off inside it's own smaller pocket. Bitter fighting broke out inside and outside the pocket as Army Group San fought bitterly to crush the pocket whilst the 1st Belorussian Front fought desperately to escape. STAVKA was also panicking as the 3rd armoured and 9th infantry army had crossed the San and were advancing at a slightly alarming rate whilst further north the 11th and 16th Armies of Army Group North were also pushing forward slightly. Paranoid of losing Rokossovsky's entire front and possibly even more forces in a German counter-offensive, STAVKA ordered a strategic halt. The Soviet offensive had jarred to a halt against Mansteins buffer and the remnants of Army Group North retreated in an orderly fashion rejoining the line behind the San in pushing back the savaged Belorussian front. The 65th, 69th, and 70th Armies managed to break the pocket for a few days whilst remnants of the entrapped 28th and 47th armies pulled back to the East of the San before the German Kessel was closed once more.

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Soviet prisoners lay down their arms after the bitter fighting in eastern Poland

The whole area across the San had become a battered desert and for years to come bones of soldiers from both sides would resurface every Spring. Casualties had been staggering for both sides, with dead and wounded mounting to the hundreds of thousands but the Germans had prevented catastrophe from befalling them and could now focus on constructing a new defense line with which to hold the Soviets outside the Greater Reich.

For Germans and even sometimes in the dark depths of the enemy's mind, the name Manstein was beginning to have a tint of religious fervour about it...

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Thoughts? :)
 
So a backhanded blow at the last possible moment it could have succeeded? Where was the Soviet Air Force during this episode? More than any other arm, the Luftwaffe is not up to contesting the battlefield.....
 
The idea that the Germans in this shape can hold the WA was a long shot to say the least. The idea that the Germans with an East Front that had been weakened to support Manstein's campaign in the west, will be in any shape to counter-attack and entrap Soviet armies is ASB. Seriously the Red Army wont just blunder into traps like this in 1944. Particularly not after what happened in the west to the WA. It not like the two fronts happen in a seprate universe, STAVKA will have seen just what Manstein had done in France and plan accordingly.

Simply put the Germans cant pull this crap in the east any more, unless the Soviet high command actively try to lose just to make the WA feel better about their own screw ups or somthing. Through seriously just because the Germans do better in the west why do they always, always need to also better in the east in these TL's?

The Soviets can *gasp* do better than the OTL ya know.:rolleyes:
 
The idea that the Germans in this shape can hold the WA was a long shot to say the least. The idea that the Germans with an East Front that had been weakened to support Manstein's campaign in the west, will be in any shape to counter-attack and entrap Soviet armies is ASB. Seriously the Red Army wont just blunder into traps like this in 1944. Particularly not after what happened in the west to the WA. It not like the two fronts happen in a seprate universe, STAVKA will have seen just what Manstein had done in France and plan accordingly.

Simply put the Germans cant pull this crap in the east any more, unless the Soviet high command actively try to lose just to make the WA feel better about their own screw ups or somthing. Through seriously just because the Germans do better in the west why do they always, always need to also better in the east in these TL's?

The Soviets can *gasp* do better than the OTL ya know.:rolleyes:


The western front victory was with otl forces, just with different dispositions

Rokosovsky's 1st white russian front was the farthest exposed at this time, and Hossbach in Otl did conduct several successful spoiling offensives that inflicted heavy casualties (albeit this was lost in the greater castastrophy of bagration)

The Germans, with the proper numbers (4 experienced corps from the west plus transferring units from the first panzer army) would able to beat Rokosovsky locally, in effect buying time for the the rest of the front to finish panicing and realaign themselves... Manstein's thumpings of the red army typically left whatever front he happened to engage them on rather tired and depleted.... the Russian's have still advanced a long way, their offensive ran out of gas only somewhat earlier than otl

its not that the west can't apply overwhelming firepower later, but with the loss of 5 experienced divisions, and Germans actually doing scorched earth in france, their rate of advance is going to be slow until they get the influx of divisions winter 44 spring 45 and rebuild the road and rail netword
 
Known enemies and forced allies (Chapter 15) Part I

The Kremlin August 1944

"It is better to have a known enemy that a forced ally" - Napoleon

Joseph Stalin, the man of steel of Russia paced, smoking his pipe nervously. The reports from the front where dissapointing. Bagration had been a definent success, but Manstein's counterattack from the San had inflicted tremendous casualties. The center of the Russian army became disorganized forcing the overall pace of the advance front wide to slow down, which in turn allowed Army Group North to escape encirclement. Model had already started a rapid reorganization on his demoralized army group and inflicted a bloody nose during several desperate rear guard actions in East Prussia where the casualty ratio favored the Germans 9 to 1

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Some of Stalin's prisoners from Bagration

The boss was angry... this was the third time Model had inflicted such a bloodletting on his forces (Kiev, Mars and now East Prussia) and the third time his generals had been victim to one of Manstein's rebound counter attacks. Stalin had been prolifigate with his forces, but even he was forced to consider his dwindeling human bank account. Everything had been committed to Bagration and although it had liberated much territory, Manstein's "miricle of the san" and Model's desperate actions had turned it into a pyriac campaign

What was worse was that those damn fool capitalists had gotten their dicks slammed in the door by Manstein and where not apply the pressure in the west he needed (not that his own generals didn't enjoy similar drubbings when they encounted the Prussian field marshal). That a full freaking panzer army of good troops had seen fit to transfer themselves east and smash one of his fronts left the Vozd furious and distrustful. His advisors had done the utmost to contain his tremendous and lethal paranoia over the last year, but now the distrust began to flicker; growing brighter and brighter

The capitalists pigs mean to destroy ourselves defeating fascism, their losses are nothing and they cannot advance, well no more. Have Molotov brought to me now!


to be continued...

your thoughts?

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The boss was furious that Manstein and Model had taken the wind out of his army's chest. Something no Russian commander usually ever considered was now coming to a head; manpower
 
9 to 1 losses? Too much seriously! The Soviets didn’t do that kind of human wave attack crap, plus the Soviet manpower edge vis-à-vis the Axis was closer to 2 or 3 to 1, they couldn’t (and never did) sustain these losses on a large scale after 1941..

You’re also giving Manstein and to a lesser extent Model ASB like magical powers. Manstein was good but he wasn’t exceptional to anywhere near this degree. His OTL ideas for ‘’backhand blows’’ and fighting the Soviets to stalemate, were wildly and delusionaly optimistic in their own way as Hitler’s fantasies of victory.

In short If the Germans try to ‘’backhand’’ the Soviets in 1944 they pull back a bloody stump, they certainly cant save both Army Groups.
 
9 to 1 losses? Too much seriously! The Soviets didn’t do that kind of human wave attack crap, plus the Soviet manpower edge vis-à-vis the Axis was closer to 2 or 3 to 1, they couldn’t (and never did) sustain these losses on a large scale after 1941..

You’re also giving Manstein and to a lesser extent Model ASB like magical powers. Manstein was good but he wasn’t exceptional to anywhere near this degree. His OTL ideas for ‘’backhand blows’’ and fighting the Soviets to stalemate, were wildly and delusionaly optimistic in their own way as Hitler’s fantasies of victory.

In short If the Germans try to ‘’backhand’’ the Soviets in 1944 they pull back a bloody stump, they certainly cant save both Army Groups.

9 to 1 losses occured in OTL battles where the Germans where well led and indeed both of these battles where after 1941
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mars#Casualties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Battle_of_Kharkov#Aftermath
And there where lots of isolated small battles like ladoga and volkov where the Germans inflicted tremendous casualties (not necessarily 9 to 1 but more than 3 to 1)

By this point, Rokosovski's front had come forward hundreds of miles and their men and machines where exausted, a choice victim for a significant counterattack

Army Group North was lost by Hitler's insane deployments and army group center falling back too fast, if Manstein is able to convince Hitler to accept strategic retreat (in this case as a preamble to a serious counter attack) army group north would be able to fall back as well and not be lost to the front, and with the center shaking itself out into better shape, army group north's flanks won't be in the air so they can be saved

Manstein's tactics of backhand blow where only ever seriously tried once, and in that battle he achieved a major victory
 
Should have been reading this sooner.

Hmm, I am hesitant ton think Germany can be saved at this juncture. But a wise commander once said "the outcome of any battle is never ineveitable." But miracles are valiable for their distinct rarity.

Still, Manstein has won victories in the West halting the Allies for the moment and hurting Churchill in Britain. Te East though is everything, and now the situation has been greatly altered.

I am eager to hear what Stalin wants Molotov to do. I have two ideas, but Stalin is in Stalin mode so predicting the outcome is sketchy.

Watching and waiting.
 
9 to 1 losses occured in OTL battles where the Germans where well led and indeed both of these battles where after 1941
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mars#Casualties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Battle_of_Kharkov#Aftermath
And there where lots of isolated small battles like ladoga and volkov where the Germans inflicted tremendous casualties (not necessarily 9 to 1 but more than 3 to 1)

By this point, Rokosovski's front had come forward hundreds of miles and their men and machines where exausted, a choice victim for a significant counterattack

Army Group North was lost by Hitler's insane deployments and army group center falling back too fast, if Manstein is able to convince Hitler to accept strategic retreat (in this case as a preamble to a serious counter attack) army group north would be able to fall back as well and not be lost to the front, and with the center shaking itself out into better shape, army group north's flanks won't be in the air so they can be saved

Manstein's tactics of backhand blow where only ever seriously tried once, and in that battle he achieved a major victory

Hmm, those are from wiki and I dont trust wiki in general. I never trust wiki on any subject about Russia. The Soviet simply didnt throw away manpower like that they couldnt do so. because out of a population of 170 million they lost 3 million men of military age in 1941 as POWs etc and they lost land with a population of around 60 million.

Thrus after 1941 the Red Army relied on firepower (massed artillery) and massed armour to beat their opponents they only squandered manpower in profligate manner when they had no choice such as at Stalingrad those were rare cases. You've been reading too many Cold War stereotypes and self-serving memoirs written by German general’s to justify their own failure. Contrary to popular belief the Soviet manpower edge over the Germans/Axis wasn’t so great nor was it the key to their victory.

Army Group northh was lost for varity of reason not all of which are directly blameable on Hitler and even if they did try to pull back they forfeit some defensive advantages and the Army Group cannot as a whole be saved. The Red Army is not led by dullards. They will adjust their tactics according to German manoeuvres and will not simply go DUUURRR and acts as they did OTL. Also Stalin was far more capable of taking the advice of military experts than Hitler ever was (or could be). He was fairly good at running the logistics of a war-effort at a high level. The Hitler you present in TTL is simply not a realistic Hitler. Even if to a lesser degree Hitler will still meddle all the time.

Still even so. The myth that Hitler was alone to blame for losing the war for Germany and if he'd only listened to his generals things would’ve turned out different. Is a self-serving lie propagated by those same generals in the post-war period to hide their own failures and crimes and pin the blame on a universally reviled dead man

As for Manstein’s backhand-blow tactics winning a battle, which one? Also why do you think this tactic will work a second time? As I said the Soviets are not stupid they wont keep running into the same traps time and again. And as I said Manstein is often hugely overrated.

Should have been reading this sooner.

Hmm, I am hesitant ton think Germany can be saved at this juncture. But a wise commander once said "the outcome of any battle is never ineveitable." But miracles are valiable for their distinct rarity.

Still, Manstein has won victories in the West halting the Allies for the moment and hurting Churchill in Britain. Te East though is everything, and now the situation has been greatly altered.

I am eager to hear what Stalin wants Molotov to do. I have two ideas, but Stalin is in Stalin mode so predicting the outcome is sketchy.

Watching and waiting.

The Soviets demand the old Russian Empire’s borders vis-à-vis Germany 1914 or in return for peace some-such. Stalin wont settle for a white peace on the 1941 borders so that's out.:p
 
Hmm, those are from wiki and I dont trust wiki in general. I never trust wiki on any subject about Russia. The Soviet simply didnt throw away manpower like that they couldnt do so. because out of a population of 170 million they lost 3 million men of military age in 1941 as POWs etc and they lost land with a population of around 60 million.

Thrus after 1941 the Red Army relied on firepower (massed artillery) and massed armour to beat their opponents they only squandered manpower in profligate manner when they had no choice such as at Stalingrad those were rare cases. You've been reading too many Cold War stereotypes and self-serving memoirs written by German general’s to justify their own failure. Contrary to popular belief the Soviet manpower edge over the Germans/Axis wasn’t so great nor was it the key to their victory.

Army Group northh was lost for varity of reason not all of which are directly blameable on Hitler and even if they did try to pull back they forfeit some defensive advantages and the Army Group cannot as a whole be saved. The Red Army is not led by dullards. They will adjust their tactics according to German manoeuvres and will not simply go DUUURRR and acts as they did OTL. Also Stalin was far more capable of taking the advice of military experts than Hitler ever was (or could be). He was fairly good at running the logistics of a war-effort at a high level. The Hitler you present in TTL is simply not a realistic Hitler. Even if to a lesser degree Hitler will still meddle all the time.

Still even so. The myth that Hitler was alone to blame for losing the war for Germany and if he'd only listened to his generals things would’ve turned out different. Is a self-serving lie propagated by those same generals in the post-war period to hide their own failures and crimes and pin the blame on a universally reviled dead man

As for Manstein’s backhand-blow tactics winning a battle, which one? Also why do you think this tactic will work a second time? As I said the Soviets are not stupid they wont keep running into the same traps time and again. And as I said Manstein is often hugely overrated.



The Soviets demand the old Russian Empire’s borders vis-à-vis Germany 1914 or in return for peace some-such. Stalin wont settle for a white peace on the 1941 borders so that's out.:p


Operation Mars and Third Battle of Kharkov casualty total's are verified by David Glantz who has been extensively through the Moscow archives on the subject..he is one of the most aformentioned experts on the Russian side of things in ww2... if he says 9 to 1 then it was 9 to 1.

And the third battle of kharkov was a backhand blow... the soviets overextended past the donets; manstein massed his panzers on their flanks and chopped them up, it cannot be understated exactly how good and experienced german tank battalions where at fluid manuever warfare... the russians by this stage of bagration would have advanced hundreds of miles from their start line with men and machines getting weary... experiencing a counterattack by 4 fresh corps of 1st class troops would catch them off balance and inflict a local defeat

Hitler more than anything abhorred losing... but with Kharkov, and a victory in the west to his credit with these tactics, he would be more inclined to listen... plus if kluge was going along with manstein it would carry more weight because in hitler's book kluge was a good and loyal nazi
army group north with the proper orders could still have retired and kept themselves from getting pulled away from the rest of the army... even if they get chopped up and beaten up in the process they would still be availabe to the rest of the front which is better than penning themselves in courland like they did in otl

the reason i think that tactic would work repeatedly was because of stalin's attitude and russian general's fear at lack of progress... being slow and cautious so as not to be taken by surprise lowers your rate of advance, which increases your chance of stalling, which increases your chance of going to the gulag
 
What 9 to 1 KIA in favour of the Germans? Sorry I don’t buy no matter who is selling that story.

Actually I think the third battle of Kharkov was a fairly typical German counter-attack, and the success of those counter-attack cannot be guarantied against the Red Army. After all The Heer suffered many bloody failures trying to counter-attack the Soviets. Germans panzers might be better 1 on 1 (the fact they mostly had radios helps a lot) but they’re not magical and the Soviets can replace their lost tanks far easier than the Heer. Nothing Manstein did stands out, other German commanders could do much the same.

You don’t explain just how the Germans can move all these troops in secrecy and if your POD here is the Germans Army Groups North and Centre are doing so much better why is the Red Army so overeager in the attack? Again you assume the Soviets are going to behave in a pre-determined fashion just so they can helpfully assist the Germans. Again the Red Army’s commanders are not stupid if their offensive hasn’t gone fully to plan then why keep pressing. It? If anything in this POD the Red Army will halt consolidate it’s gains sooner, then strike elsewhere. Perhaps further south in Ukraine to break through into Romania.

Hitler more than anything abhorred losing control of events. He will not countenance the army or the generals slipping too far outside his direct control particularly not in the main front I.E the East. He will meddle if only to show who is boss. Only commanders in side-show theatres like Rommel could act with this degree of independence.

As for the part of your post about Stalin and his generals. It's a stereotype Stalin could be very patent when it suited him and the Russian generals during WW2 weren’t as meek and easily cowed as you make out. If the likes Zhukov and Rokossovskiy think launching an attack is a bad idea they will say so. Stalin far far more likely to listen to such advice than Hitler, the historical record on that is unambiguous. The disasters of 1941 really did shock Stalin into change of behaviour.

Hitler on the other hand really cant do the same, otherwise he just aint Hitler and your POD should be an army coup in 1944 and the new junta wanting to keep fighting for whatever reason.

Don’t get me wrong I like the TL I just think that focusing on one side's actions assuming their opponents will always passively go along with their own defeat can detract from it a little.

It also has to be said the dact I thinkGermany was outstandingly lucky during WW2 OTL (I.E beating France in six weeks etc), general distaste for the Axis and the fact so many WW2 German focused TL on AH.com turn into ASB fuelled Axis-Wank. Is why I doth protest so much.:)
 
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What 9 to 1 KIA in favour of the Germans? Sorry I don’t buy no matter who is selling that story.

Actually I think the third battle of Kharkov was a fairly typical German counter-attack, and the success of those counter-attack cannot be guarantied against the Red Army. After all The Heer suffered many bloody failures trying to counter-attack the Soviets. Germans panzers might be better 1 on 1 (the fact they mostly had radios helps a lot) but they’re not magical and the Soviets can replace their lost tanks far easier than the Heer. Nothing Manstein did stands out, other German commanders could do much the same.

You don’t explain just how the Germans can move all these troops in secrecy and if your POD here is the Germans Army Groups North and Centre are doing so much better why is the Red Army so overeager in the attack? Again you assume the Soviets are going to behave in a pre-determined fashion just so they can helpfully assist the Germans. Again the Red Army’s commanders are not stupid if their offensive hasn’t gone fully to plan then why keep pressing. It? If anything in this POD the Red Army will halt consolidate it’s gains sooner, then strike elsewhere. Perhaps further south in Ukraine to break through into Romania.

Hitler more than anything abhorred losing control of events. He will not countenance the army or the generals slipping too far outside his direct control particularly not in the main front I.E the East. He will meddle if only to show who is boss. Only commanders in side-show theatres like Rommel could act with this degree of independence.

As for the part of your post about Stalin and his generals. It's a stereotype Stalin could be very patent when it suited him and the Russian generals during WW2 weren’t as meek and easily cowed as you make out. If the likes Zhukov and Rokossovskiy think launching an attack is a bad idea they will say so. Stalin far far more likely to listen to such advice than Hitler, the historical record on that is unambiguous. The disasters of 1941 really did shock Stalin into change of behaviour.

Hitler on the other hand really cant do the same, otherwise he just aint Hitler and your POD should be an army coup in 1944 and the new junta wanting to keep fighting for whatever reason.

Don’t get me wrong I like the TL I just think that focusing on one side's actions assuming their opponents will always passively go along with their own defeat can detract from it a little.

It also has to be said the dact I thinkGermany was outstandingly lucky during WW2 OTL (I.E beating France in six weeks etc), general distaste for the Axis and the fact so many WW2 German focused TL on AH.com turn into ASB fuelled Axis-Wank. Is why I doth protest so much.:)


9 to 1 of all casualties KIA, WIA, MIA

Fluid armored battles typically favored the Germans, be it Kharkov or Voronzeth or Brody, it was only when the germans where nailed to a position stailngrad, hitler's no retreat orders that they surrendered their superiority in open battle

The Germans in ww2 where masters at shutteling around resources it would be easy to mix in fresh forces amongst "shattered" elements of army group center to reduce the visability of a buildup... again caution and low rates of advance where not keys to a long healthy life as a soviet general officer, be it vatuin, timoshenko, or zhukov himself... the russians desire to be aggressive led to mistakes that could be exploited by operationally skilled generals

If they where actually attacking (which hitler liked) and being bold and aggressive it reduces his perceived need to mirco manage, also the july 20th attack hasn't happened, so his uber insane paranoia is being held in check for the time being... according to guderian and a number of other sources prior to july 20 hitler was still capable of listening to people

The purges where fresh in people's minds... especially Rokosovsky since he was a victim... Zhukov was the only one allowed any discretion and questioning with the boss, and Stalin had to seriously look the other way with him with operation mars where Zhukov got his ass handed to him.

the germans threw away all their powers of resistance in france in otl due to their insane divisional allocations prior to dday, by having the germans have even a modicum of success (given the small size of the western allied ground armies) it frees up significant resources for other tasks (even if only temporarily)
 
For Germans and even sometimes in the dark depths of the enemy's mind, the name Manstein was beginning to have a tint of religious fervour about it...

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Thoughts? :)


This looks quite promising. If Hitler gets back into his meddling jeapordizing all of Mansteins efforts the Prussian Marshal may finally be a candidate for the coup. And with his star so high it might succeed with his innvolvement bringing the rank and file to the plotters.
 
Known enemies and forced allies (Chapter 16) Part II

Berlin August 1944

Adolf Hitler was a declining man, his health was steadily being overrun by what could later be described as Parkinson's disease. However, beneath his evil heart, there was still a political operator. The dramatic victory at Stalingrad West and the Miracle of the San had not only restored the county's declining fighting morale but had once again allowed the German propaganda machine to praise the genius of their fuhrer. However this time, unlike previous lionizations, Hitler was unable to keep the spotlight solely pointed at himself. Fieldmarshal Erich Von Manstein's star had shot to the top. His numerous victories on every front had now crafted a Hindenberg type Prussian hero. Despite his being the general staff's finest prodigy, Manstein wasn't without enemies

adolf-hitler.jpg

Hitler's patience at the continued lauding of Manstein grew thin in the autumn of 1944

Reichsfuhrer SS Heinrich Himmler and Reichsmarshal Hermann Goering had been conspiring for over a year to oust the surly field marshal. They had nearly succeeded a few months before, but only the direct intervention of Jodl and the death of Rundstead saved his career. Now that the fronts had appeared to stabilize and yet another critical inflection point in the war effort presented itself, they again lobbied often and loudly for Manstein's ouster. Himmler ran out every possible charge from treason to incompetence to Hitler as he suggested various SS officers to take over Army Group Center and Manstein's divisions.

The rumor mill went into high swing once again, and tensions positively boiled over when Hitler's personal Kondor FW-200 aircraft touched down at Warsaw to bring Manstein to Berlin. Frantic signals emminenated out of Army Group Center headquarters and Manstein's staff which where loaded with Anti-Hitler plotters.

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Manstein's staff paniced when they heard him being summoned back to Berlin, the rumor mill said he was going to be retired

A rolling thunderstorm passed over the front with all the anger of summer, grounding the aircraft, forcing Manstein to make his journey by train... adding a critical day.

That day was one the likes of which was never seen before in the German army. Manstein had confined himself to obliviousness and was traveling with his family and left everyone except one orderly at HQ to mind shop whilst he was away for what he assumed would just be another conference

Wholer and Spedeil from his staff had again tried to convince him to join the Anti-Hitler Kamerilla, and also begged him not to leave since he would be fired. Manstein assumed all would be fine, after all Hitler had just heaped decorations and praise on him just weeks ago.

Despite Manstein's confidence, the German army reacted in violent self defense of her finest son. Jodl and Zeitzler went to Hitler to ask if Manstein was to be relieved. He was non committal, which to those men was a tacit yes, and then the wheels of information started to spin rapidly. Zeitzler had his resignation on the fuhrer's desk within 45 minutes, Jodl's followed in the same breath. In the following hour, a long letter defending Manstein signed by Zeitzler's entire staff appeared on his desk, followed by en masse resignations "in solidarity with the savior of the fatherland" as Oberst Von Bonin from the Operation Department put it. Other resignations from Jodl's staff where stinging... Oberst Nicolas Von Below (Hitler's personal Luftwaffe adjudant) "If Von Manstein isn't fit to serve Germany, than neither am I, I hereby resign my commission"

Hitler and Himmler desperately tried to squash and quell the uproar by reasoning with the officers, whilst Himmler ordered up the fuhrer begleit brigade to start confining some of the leadership to quarters, but too many people knew what was happening and the Berlin military telegraph officer flooded with resignations. Each one stunned Hitler as he insisted to Himmler and Bormann that he must read them himself. Hoth from the west was stinging and his entire staff followed suit, many of whom had served under Manstein for more than 2 years. Resignations from the east flowed in so fast the office couldn't keep up. Division, corps, army and even Field Marshal Model's resignations are threats thereof if Manstein was fired poured in

Model's resignation wounded Hitler deeply Field Marshal Model was my best field marshal, and a committed national socialist

Inspector of armored troops Heinz Guderian shuffled into Hitler's office with some paper's in his hands just two hours before Manstein's train was due into Berlin.

Hitler: What do you have there Generaloberst? More resignations? I swear you generals are all children about this and have forgotten your oath. What did Hindenberg or any general ever do for Germany. Only committed national socialists like you will remain in the new order of things
Guderian: I am sorry my fuhrer, but I have to come to see you for myself. Here is my resignation. My views are 100 percent in accordance with General Von Manstein's and he was the architect of every move that has saved Germany, if he is not worthy of your service, mine cannot continue either
Hitler: You disloyal JEW! How dare you? After the powerful office I gave you? After the trust and control you betray me! (Hitler started shaking his fists and pacing around the room in tremendous anger as his face turned beet red
Guderian: (Trying to keep himself calm and even toned) Beneath my resignation, are the resignations of my entire staff, also is a facsimile of the letter written by Generaloberst Zeitzeler's staff to which my staff has also afixed their signatures. You'll note my signature on the bottom with the usual green "G:
Hitler: GET THE FUCK OUT YOU TRAITOR! YOU HAVE NO LOYALTY TO YOUR OATH OR TO GERMANY!! (Guderian left the room leaving Hitler with Goering, Keitel and Himmler)

Goering: This is turning into a big problem my fuhrer
Hitler: Problem? This is a full blown god damn mutiny!
Himmler: We will need to take strong measures to assure your authority my fuhrer
Keitel: My fuhrer, this is a grave mistake and I cannot continue in your service with this choice of action, my resignation will be on your desk within the hour
Hitler: NO! not you too Wilhelm, don't let yourself get caught up in this suido religious attachment to Von Manstein, remember your oath
Keitel: I am sorry my fuhrer, but the man I took my oath to is gone. You have replaced him with some sort of vain creature not concerned with Germany's future but only the survival of his Kamerilla, I have no place in such a command, my entire staff has already thrust their resignation on my desk, in turn I as their commander have a duty to stand at their front and offer my resignation in turn

to be continued...

your thoughts?

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Manstein had risen to a level of awe amongst the entire German officer corps, and rumors of his firing led to a mass resignation of nearly the entire German Army command structure
 
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