Spartan Empire With Helots

[Happers]

I know this has been discussed, the idea of a Spartan Empire. I'd like to ask though, as in all the forums I read the Helots (Slaves) had to go or at least be given more rights for the system to work. So, how could a Helot system work with a Spartan Empire? What would have to go and what would stay?

Thanks for your responses.

 

[star lord 7]

Well for starters, roll back the practice of dehumanizing the helots so they have a reason to give a damn about the future of a Spartan Empire. Or, at least give them a clear path to rise somewhat through the ranks.

 

[Happers]

Well for starters, roll back the practice of dehumanizing the helots so they have a reason to give a damn about the future of a Spartan Empire. Or, at least give them a clear path to rise somewhat through the ranks.

So like a Slave meritocracy of sorts? They're still slaves but they can have more rights over time if certain things are met.

 

[Hrvatskiwi]

Perhaps a system that emphasises the enslavement of defeated people's that don't immediately submit to Spartan suzerainty? Or if a populace unsuccessfully revolts, that their city is razed and the population. Brought back as slaves? Helots could then rise to a slave-owning (although Spartans would have more slaves) 'middle class' per se until the development of a more complex caste system as technology and history progress.

 

[star lord 7]

Perhaps a system that emphasises the enslavement of defeated people's that don't immediately submit to Spartan suzerainty? Or if a populace unsuccessfully revolts, that their city is razed and the population. Brought back as slaves? Helots could then rise to a slave-owning (although Spartans would have more slaves) 'middle class' per se until the development of a more complex caste system as technology and history progress.

Something like this. The Spartans were too rigid, and I always thought that this aspect of their society played a big part in their decline.

 

[AussieHawker]

You could only be a citizen if you were born of a citizen. Spartans also married late and saw their wives rarely. Combined with the harsh lifestyle. Overall it meant that the citizen population was in near constant decline and the trained troops had to be careful husbanded. So Sparta would actually avoid war whenever possible (like a convenient religious festival) and would sent limited numbers. The Limited numbers sent was also because the helots (which outnumbered them around 10 to 1) would frequently revolt.

Sparta's entire structure is basically against a empire forming. Economic activity was discouraged with only the non citizen perioikoi performing any non farming economic activity. Low numbers. Oppressive society.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

Give the Helots more rights so they've less incentive to rebel. Maybe have a situation a bit like that of medieval Europe, where the Spartiates are the knights (the warrior class who protect the country and keep everybody safe) and the Helots are like the peasants (farming to support the warriors, but still with rights of their own and, if they're hard-working and lucky, the ability to earn more money and better their life).

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

There are a whole mess of rights that would need to change.

Helots need rights just to make the Empire more stable across the board, or at least the right to become Perioikoi. That would help at least bind the Empire together, and facilitate inter-city and inter-settlement trade. (Something Spartans couldn't legally do btw). Perhaps through an action of merit. This could also involve the children of helots being taken and raised as Perioikoi. (Which solves the Bastards problem). This would eventually eliminate the Helot population, so Helotisation could be a criminal sentence.

In order to have an Empire/Hegemony like Macedonia had you need loyal demographics in other cities. Otherwise you risk defection. If Sparta insists on the Spartiate Class, then there needs to be another Urban Caste. If that Urban class has dominance over their local Helots and Perioikoi (or at least Perioikoi that are in their jurisdiction) then it emulates the Spartan caste system locally.

The Urban class would probably have to have the right to marry Spartans if the Spartan proposes, and that their offspring would be Spartan, in order to ensure the creation of a local Spartan gene-stock (Weird term to use here), and create bonds of family and loyalty with Sparta. Plus, it means that Spartan garrisons don't get horribly in-bred and can grow over the generations.

So Helots can become Perioikoi, and Urbans can become Spartans through marriage. It is odd, but the local garrisons, and hierarchy could work to maintain the Empire.

Its a hell of a reform, but I think it works within the caste system, without completely wrecking it.

 

[star lord 7]

There are a whole mess of rights that would need to change.

Helots need rights just to make the Empire more stable across the board, or at least the right to become Perioikoi. That would help at least bind the Empire together, and facilitate inter-city and inter-settlement trade. (Something Spartans couldn't legally do btw). Perhaps through an action of merit. This could also involve the children of helots being taken and raised as Perioikoi. (Which solves the Bastards problem). This would eventually eliminate the Helot population, so Helotisation could be a criminal sentence.

In order to have an Empire/Hegemony like Macedonia had you need loyal demographics in other cities. Otherwise you risk defection. If Sparta insists on the Spartiate Class, then there needs to be another Urban Caste. If that Urban class has dominance over their local Helots and Perioikoi (or at least Perioikoi that are in their jurisdiction) then it emulates the Spartan caste system locally.

The Urban class would probably have to have the right to marry Spartans if the Spartan proposes, and that their offspring would be Spartan, in order to ensure the creation of a local Spartan gene-stock (Weird term to use here), and create bonds of family and loyalty with Sparta. Plus, it means that Spartan garrisons don't get horribly in-bred and can grow over the generations.

This seems like the best means to lay the groundwork for a Spartan Empire. Sounds like a nice basis for a TL! (mental gears start turning)

 

[Lucius Verus]

I suppose it begs the question, why didn't the Spartan state change? You will also need to "enlighten" the Spartans which as a group numbered 8000 at max ruling over hundreds of thousands.

 

[Analytical Engine]

Introduce Sparta to the joys of feudalism?

 

[carlton_bach]

I suppose it begs the question, why didn't the Spartan state change? You will also need to "enlighten" the Spartans which as a group numbered 8000 at max ruling over hundreds of thousands.

The Spartan state had developed into the highly militarised and rigid caste system it was for one reason only: because it ruled over the helots. The need to keep them down was what made the Spartiates into the most fearsome soldiers in Greece. Political power projection was a side benefit. THe problem is, the moment you start to change that, one of two things is liable to happen - perhaps both:

a) the helots rebel. They have no more reason to love Sparta than newly emancipated blackls would to become enthusiastic supporters of some fictional Confederacy.

b) if there is no backlash or a manageable one, the Spartiates will sooner rather than later wonder what the point to their suffering is. Sparta was comparatively rich in resources and before the militarisation of its citizenry was renowned for the fine arts. The moment enough of them decide they'd rather have Attic dinner than black soup, there goes the army.

What the question here basically is, is whether Spartas would have been more successful if it had been more like Corinth or Thebes. The answer is, it would have been more like Corinth or Thebes, but not Sparta.

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

What the question here basically is, is whether Spartas would have been more successful if it had been more like Corinth or Thebes. The answer is, it would have been more like Corinth or Thebes, but not Sparta.

To counter that - it becomes Imperial Sparta Just as historic artistic Sparta was Sparta, Militant Caste Sparta was Sparta, Imperial Sparta is another Sparta

 

[carlton_bach]

To counter that - it becomes Imperial Sparta Just as historic artistic Sparta was Sparta, Militant Caste Sparta was Sparta, Imperial Sparta is another Sparta

My question is whether it would ever have been able to become imperial Sparta without the very military and social structures that make this change so unlikely? IOTL Sparta managed to defeat Athens on the basis of Persian subsidies. A Spartan Empire would need an economic base to replace these as well as as military one. Both will be a great challenge. I expect the system will eventually fail because of military considerations - the impossibility of maintaining the Spartiate core force without the rewards of Spartanness and the problem of keeping the military power of allies manageable. Again, IOTL it took a moderately bright idea linked to the financial resources of a first-tier polis to destroy Sparta. This will forever be a serious worry. The solutions would be either to siphon off those resources, requiring the Spartan army to basically work as tax collectors, or to economically develop Sparta to the point it can top those of any challenger. Neither is good news for the Spartan force.

Freeing the helots is pretty much your only option, but freeing the helots ends Sparta's reason for existing, and probably very shortly its existence.

 

[dandan_noodles]

Thing is, helots could become free through military service in OTL Sparta, but too many free helots undermines the basic concept. For people to specialize in a task, they have to have their basic needs met, or else they'll have to do that first. Since there was little pay to be had in soldiering, for a Spartan to spend their life training, they had to own enough land worked by other people that they could have all their needs met without taking out time of their own to work. Thus, your labor force needs to produce a hefty surplus to support your class of leisured gentlemen; best way to do this is through quasi slavery. If too many helots become free, producing the necessary surplus to support professional soldiers becomes more difficult.

Secondly, Spartan inheritance laws would be a monkey on your back; since estates were divided between the heirs, it was easy for a Spartiate family to fall below the threshold necessary to pay for the rations from the communal mess, and thus citizen status. Forever. Wealthier families could then get a steal on this fragmented property, thus accumulating vast landholdings in very few hands, eating away at the citizen soldier body.

Maybe if there was some kind of ceiling on how much land one family could own, or if Sparta directly annexed more city states to distribute land and abate property fragmentation, you might be able to sustain the hoplite body better. Not wanting to risk losing citizens, Sparta developed a system in which small staffs of Spartan citizens -about 30- would use their expertise in drill, organization, and tactics to command large forces made up primarily of allies, helots, and mercenaries, rather than their own men. In this sense, the Spartans may actually be more of the aristocratic officer corps of their empire than the citizen soldiers.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

Secondly, Spartan inheritance laws would be a monkey on your back; since estates were divided between the heirs, it was easy for a Spartiate family to fall below the threshold necessary to pay for the rations from the communal mess, and thus citizen status. Forever. Wealthier families could then get a steal on this fragmented property, thus accumulating vast landholdings in very few hands, eating away at the citizen soldier body.

How plausible would it be for Sparta to switch to primogeniture?

 

[dandan_noodles]

Fuck if I know. Would have to look at the inheritance laws of other Dorian states, like Corinth, though Sparta wasn't much less different from then than the Attic states. Also don't know if primogeniture would contradict the intra-citizen egalitarian spirit or not; I know it was considered counter revolutionary in 19th century France, but that's less apples and oranges and more apples and pickup trucks.

 

[star lord 7]

IOTL Sparta managed to defeat Athens on the basis of Persian subsidies. A Spartan Empire would need an economic base to replace these as well as as military one.

Here's an idea, long shot though it may be... What if the Spartans simply acquiesced to the Persians during the Xerxes invasion, and became the satrapal seat for Greece? This way, they don't have to reform the helot system, and they get access to Persian wealth. It may not be the kind of empire the OP is looking for, but it could be a start.