In late 1940, Molotov came to Berlin to smooth relations with Germany. The proposals of the two sides was another factor in Hitler's decision to attack the Soviet Union. WI, in a move to help relations the Soviet proposal was more agreeable to the Nazis? And in December 1940, Stalin accepts to join the anti-US pact. The secret agreement is that Finland becomes part of Germany's sphere of influence and Northern Bukovina is returned to Romania. In return all of Dobruja is given to Bulgaria. In Asia, Asian Turkey, Iran, India, Afghanistan, Sinkiang and Inner Mongolia are the new sphere of influence for the Soviet Union. Basically accepting the Nazis proposals. In Africa, Tunisa, Libya, Egypt, Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia and Kenya is recognized as Italy's sphere of influence. Germany and Japan will eventually turn on the Soviet Union but for now a pan Euro-Asia front will confront the Anglo-Saxons. Japan will still attack Pearl Harbor in December 1941 along with the Soviet invasion of Iran followed by India and Germany finally trying to launch Operation Sea Lion.
Soviet Union joins Axis, December 1940
- Thread starter Musketeer513
- Start date
End result? Long, drawn out war with much greater US and Indian mobilization, and widespread use of American atomic weapons deployed from heavy bombers over Europe and the Soviet Union.
As long as the US stays in the war, along with Britain and the Commonwealth, the war is absolutely unwinnable for OTL Axis + Soviet Union. The Soviets can't prevent Japan from getting crushed, can't strike directly at the US, and add virtually nothing to Germany's ability to gain naval superiority in the Channel, as well as being unable to gain superiority over US/British airpower.
As long as the US stays in the war, along with Britain and the Commonwealth, the war is absolutely unwinnable for OTL Axis + Soviet Union. The Soviets can't prevent Japan from getting crushed, can't strike directly at the US, and add virtually nothing to Germany's ability to gain naval superiority in the Channel, as well as being unable to gain superiority over US/British airpower.
History Learner
Banned
According to Paul Kennedy's The Rise and Fall of Great Powers, the combined war-making potential of this super Axis is 34.4% while the U.S. + UK is 51.9%, so industrially the Anglo-Saxon's still have the advantage in Industry but not as much as historically. With such stated, I think this war comes down to who can outlast who the longest in terms of casualties before their civilian resolve to continue sacrificing breaks.
Anaxagoras
Banned
I pretty much agree with this. A nightmare scenario is the "super-Axis" developing atomic weapons before the end of the war, which might be possible if German and Soviet expertise were combined.
Deleted member 1487
That would be a nightmare, but OTL the Soviets didn't get a bomb until 1949, and even then espionage played a big role. Without the Soviet Union as an ally, isn't it likely the US and Britain would crack down on Soviet espionage much quicker?
And what about a delivery system? I can see getting an atomic bomb over Britain - although if you only have a couple it's probably iffy - but over the US? Only option I see is a U-boat, but OTL U-boat were suicide tickets by the end of the war, and I don't see how that changes here.
Conversely, while I see Germany being able to counter the B-29, I don't see them having a counter in time for the B-36, and the Soviets can't counter either aircraft reliably.
I think the trick for the US and Britain would be maintaining public and political support for a war in which there is no public hope of victory anytime soon - FDR can't exactly disclose the Manhattan Project, and isn't sure it will work anyway.
The Soviets occupy all of Iran and most of China? Uhhhhh....they struggled mightily against Finland at the time.
As for reinforcements to Libya on that scale (10 German divisions), how do they supply them?
As for reinforcements to Libya on that scale (10 German divisions), how do they supply them?
Deleted member 97083
The longer Germany waits to betrays the Soviet Union, the stronger the Soviets get, and the quicker the invasion is turned back, or even stopped at its beginning. When the German-Soviet alliance breaks down, Soviets take over mainland Europe.
I think the Allies would have to make peace with the Soviets, as I can't see the motivation for a super Operation Unthinkable when the WAllies didn't do it historically in more favorable conditions than this scenario.
I think the Allies would have to make peace with the Soviets, as I can't see the motivation for a super Operation Unthinkable when the WAllies didn't do it historically in more favorable conditions than this scenario.
A long drawn war is possible, but a few points:
With Soviet Union supplying Japan there is no realistic possibility of a US blockade until US forces get really close to Japan.
With Soviet full co-operation Germany could bomb and isolate UK into submission, even with US aid.
orwelans II
Banned
The pro-Stalin communist movement around the world is probably done for even if the Axis somehow win. The US might have greater industrial might than the Axis, but they'll have a hard time bringing it to bare in Eurasia. Plus, the neutral powers bordering them add to the Axis total because they'd accept their terms for any trade deal. With Soviet help, the Japanese might do better in China. Mongolia could be expanded, Mao could either denounce Stalin or he'd somehow become TTL's Wang Jingwei.
For the Soviet state's national interests this is a good deal because it's heartland is safe while Japan and Germany take the brunt of the fighting. Their five year plans and modernisation can continue since their war effort is not all that significant. The Axis could possibly try to pressure Turkey to join them or at least let them pass to make their invasion of the Levant and Persia easier.
For the Soviet state's national interests this is a good deal because it's heartland is safe while Japan and Germany take the brunt of the fighting. Their five year plans and modernisation can continue since their war effort is not all that significant. The Axis could possibly try to pressure Turkey to join them or at least let them pass to make their invasion of the Levant and Persia easier.
thaddeus
Donor
my suggestion is that an earlier collaboration occurs between Germany-USSR that leaves Finland and the Baltic states as German trading bloc but concedes to the Soviets some territory or influence in Balkans or Turkey (they did not want to be bottled up in Black Sea.)
IF Germany plotted a durable alliance with USSR then Japan is really ... useless? the trade with China could have continued, Soviets had decent relations with KMT.
the best case scenario for Germany is Soviets in Axis, Japan NEVER in, and the border conflicts in Manchuria turn into outright war.
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That's the key. And it will also be the "turn" as in "turning point".
Nor can it be much farther down the road. Hitler knows time is not on Germany's side; the Soviet Union in this scenario is getting the better end of the deal and is able to grow stronger and stronger. Heck, even just a 1942 Barbarossa has pretty good chances of failing within 100-150 kms from the border.
What about the possibility of Stalin carrying out some sort of anti-Semitic purge to seal his alliance with Hitler with prominent Soviet Jews being accused of being part of some Trotskyist conspiracy (well, Trotsky was a Jew) and shot with many average Soviet Jews being sent to the Gulag? Even OTL, after the Holocaust being revealed and the proclaimation of Israel, Stalin was planning a similar purge against Jews in the USSR prior to his death.
Hitler didn't invade the USSR for the purpose of killing it's Jewish population, he invaded because he wanted to annex and colonize Eastern Europe.
Generalplan Ost...
You are excluding a lot of the killing. And in Eastern Europe that's basically almost everyone, since they are undesirable/non-Aryans