So I'm nearing the end of the 3rd Emberverse book and I really dislike them

[Meatshield]

Again I just find it unlikely that the PPA would be given enough time to get set up. Or at least to expand. The PPA had 90% of it's people as serfs and 3 neighbors that were unfriendly and powerful. Give the serfs weapons and invade to free them.

The Protectorate had time to set up because the other functioning communities (especially Corvallis and the Bearkillers, who had the only real military strength) were also busy trying to get crops in and secure themselves. The Association is just a static version of the Bearkillers (read: better armed and organized than any nearbye faction, in the first months after the Change). Success builds success, and the neofeudal system lends itself to franchising.

Portland is a loooooong way by foot (or bicycle, even) from any of the "good guys". Especially in the unsettled period of CY0.

By the time things are more flexible for the proto-Meeting, the Association has entrenched itself, via control of food and luxuries (and rights*)...and castles**. It also appears that (bit of a retcon, but it works) most of the Associates were.....welcomed (or at least not actively hated) by their protoPeasant/Commoner subjects, due to providing security and food. In Walla Walla (I think it is), the future Count was the 2IC of the force (led by Renfrew) who invaded the area....and saved the population from the convicts who had escaped from the State Penitentiary.

The fleeing serf (due to abuse) phenomena may*** have been isolated incidents, due to a particular Baron (Eddie is at least hinted to be a casual sadist, when it didn't interfere with business), rather than the PPA being a Mordor-like nightmare.

*-The Protectorate seems built to siphon off the most-likely-to-revolt (successfully) segment of the population, and co-opt them into the ranks of its own (either as Associates or Men-at-arms/Soldiers). Norman doesn't seem like the guys who shorts his troops.

**- Once the castle is up, you pay your taxes or the Baron burns your crops and locks up the castle when you try to retaliate. Without the Bearkillers, Iron Rod would be Duke of the Prairie.

***-in fact it had to have been....or there's no way Norman could have raised that army of spear and crossbowmen.

 

[hopper2cool]

The Protectorate had time to set up because the other functioning communities (especially Corvallis and the Bearkillers, who had the only real military strength) were also busy trying to get crops in and secure themselves. The Association is just a static version of the Bearkillers (read: better armed and organized than any nearbye faction, in the first months after the Change). Success builds success, and the neofeudal system lends itself to franchising.

Portland is a loooooong way by foot (or bicycle, even) from any of the "good guys". Especially in the unsettled period of CY0.

By the time things are more flexible for the proto-Meeting, the Association has entrenched itself, via control of food and luxuries (and rights*)...and castles**. It also appears that (bit of a retcon, but it works) most of the Associates were.....welcomed (or at least not actively hated) by their protoPeasant/Commoner subjects, due to providing security and food. In Walla Walla (I think it is), the future Count was the 2IC of the force (led by Renfrew) who invaded the area....and saved the population from the convicts who had escaped from the State Penitentiary.

The fleeing serf (due to abuse) phenomena may*** have been isolated incidents, due to a particular Baron (Eddie is at least hinted to be a casual sadist, when it didn't interfere with business), rather than the PPA being a Mordor-like nightmare.

*-The Protectorate seems built to siphon off the most-likely-to-revolt (successfully) segment of the population, and co-opt them into the ranks of its own (either as Associates or Men-at-arms/Soldiers). Norman doesn't seem like the guys who shorts his troops.

**- Once the castle is up, you pay your taxes or the Baron burns your crops and locks up the castle when you try to retaliate. Without the Bearkillers, Iron Rod would be Duke of the Prairie.

***-in fact it had to have been....or there's no way Norman could have raised that army of spear and crossbowmen.

You might be right. But this is a Stirling book so he wrote it to reflect the things he wanted in there.
If Flint wrote this book (it would be about about the power of overly competent union members with psychic powers but never mind that) and came up with something like the PPA it wouldn't bother me.
But Stirling way overuses the "and the good guys ignores the bad guys" writing method.

 

[Meatshield]

But Stirling way overuses the "and the good guys ignores the bad guys" writing method.

To be fair to Stirling, he did have the denoument of DtF be the MacKenzie-Bearkiller-Corvallis-CORA alliance taking the offensive and driving off the PPA elements trying to establish a foothold in the strategic areas threatening the southern Valley.

After that, there wasn't much they could do (busy harvesting, planting, and building). By the time we start the next book (AMaC), the Meeting has established intel networks in the Protectorate, and have been making military preparations (directly against the inevitable war against the PPA) for years.

If anything, rather than ignoring the PPA, the good guys* spent years plotting against them....and it worked.


*-minus Corvallis and CORA, who are portrayed as the "procedural" factions who get tied up and need a kick to get them into the fight.

 

[hopper2cool]

To be fair to Stirling, he did have the denoument of DtF be the MacKenzie-Bearkiller-Corvallis-CORA alliance taking the offensive and driving off the PPA elements trying to establish a foothold in the strategic areas threatening the southern Valley.

After that, there wasn't much they could do (busy harvesting, planting, and building). By the time we start the next book (AMaC), the Meeting has established intel networks in the Protectorate, and have been making military preparations (directly against the inevitable war against the PPA) for years.

If anything, rather than ignoring the PPA, the good guys* spent years plotting against them....and it worked.


*-minus Corvallis and CORA, who are portrayed as the "procedural" factions who get tied up and need a kick to get them into the fight.

I think we will just have to disagree here. The PPA was set up as Armitage's fantasy society. For Walker it made sense. For Armitage it required a lot of things going a certain way. He got overly lucky and it required his enemies to let him get set up.

 

[Malta]

I think we will just have to disagree here. The PPA was set up as Armitage's fantasy society. For Walker it made sense. For Armitage it required a lot of things going a certain way. He got overly lucky and it required his enemies to let him get set up.

Well, he was the one best set up from the beginning. He was on the offensive from early book one, forcing the extra population and plague victims out of his territory, sending out raiding parties, making deals with ruthless bastards like Duke Iron Rod to expand his territory and influence. The Mackenzies were still not totally organized with Suttertown, and the Bearkillers only arrived in their land at the very end of the book having to set up their infanstructure and land. Corvallis was too far south, especially with the bandit filled ruins of Salem between the two.

 

[Faeelin]

You guys are reading too much into a series which is based on the assumption that all Americans need to end up as serfs is a collapse of society.

 

[Meatshield]

You guys are reading too much into a series which is based on the assumption that all Americans need to end up as serfs is a collapse of society.

Society didn't collapse.

Our material culture and vastly interlocked society suddenly disappeared. The guys who ended up with the food and wherewhithal to defend it....occasionally made subjects of those that didn't. That part (based on currently existing real-world models) is at least as plausible as the All-For-One goodguy societies that also sprang up (Bearkillers, MacKenzies, etc).

 

[Faeelin]

Don't get me wrong, I get that everybody is forced to go along with the insane Ren Fair dudes. But you'd think people would tell tales of a time when there was a government of laws, and not of men; when no one bent knee to a Lord Protector or to a clan leader.

The Roman Empire was a mythical golden age for man. The USA? With its magical seeming technology and human rights?

But again, this isn't what Stirling wanted. And it's why I can't read the series.

Even the good guys go "Wee tolkien!" The one society based around America is some sort of quasi-dictatorship, because we know that people need a strong leader.

 

[Meatshield]

Don't get me wrong, I get that everybody is forced to go along with the insane Ren Fair dudes. But you'd think people would tell tales of a time when there was a government of laws, and not of men; when no one bent knee to a Lord Protector or to a clan leader.

True. I think Stirling underestimates that. With the PPA, though, I don't think it would have much impact (the folks who like things just fine have an effective monopoly of force and supply, and the lower orders are at least kept safe). It was the Bearkillers that stretched SoD, when they swore loyalty to a small child (Mike, Jr.), who was a completely unknown quantity, rather than any of the half-dozen or so veteran adults who were running the show.
Later on, the Corvallans (and after them the Boiseans) being willing to join up with a Kingship (even a pro-forma one).....didn't do a lot for verisimilitude.
The "Hereditary-Monarchy-yes-of-course" attitude is unrealistic, when it's applied to states that haven't been deliberately set up that way. It's also why I think the High Kingdom has...maybe...a few years of mileage in it, once the CUT is dealt with. The religion and democracy (in Corvallis) angles are just going to cut too deep.

Rudi's supernatural mind-raping charisma doesn't help. I like the Series in spite of him.

The Roman Empire was a mythical golden age for man. The USA? With its magical seeming technology and human rights?

Would probably seem more like Eden, a paradise we can demonstrably never return to (due to the loss of our godlike powers in the Change), rather than an example of what could be.

Even the good guys go "Wee tolkien!"

That works best when one of the characters hangs a lampshade on it...but taken dead serious (as when Astrid is allowed to take control of a situation), it wears on the story.

The problem is that characters like Astrid and Rudi are allowed to dominate the setting, with no anti-Astrid or anti-Rudi (neither Tiph nor Sethaz counts) to balance them out. We know that Rudi is going to Rule All Forever, because there is no one on the side of Good who remotely approaches his level. If there was a Corvallan merchant-duke or Bearkiller captain who was equivalently "blessed", and offered an alternative to the Montival Plan, an decent amount of tension would have been injected into the story.

As it is, Rudi wrecks the story, and it becomes a litany of his unalloyed victories. Stirling usually subverts this (with his protagonists making at least one humiliating fuckup)...but has really gone down the wrong road here. It's the secondary characters (the Twins, Tiph, the Squires, etc) that make the story....it's almost rewarding to skip any scene with Rudi as the POV character.

 

[Mad Missouri]

It was the Bearkillers that stretched SoD, when they swore loyalty to a small child (Mike, Jr.), who was a completely unknown quantity, rather than any of the half-dozen or so veteran adults who were running the show.
Later on, the Corvallans (and after them the Boiseans) being willing to join up with a Kingship (even a pro-forma one).....didn't do a lot for verisimilitude.

I could imagine the BearKillers swearing to the Family, but not to the child.

If you think the Corvallans and US of B were odd try to explain the Sioux agreeing to be ruled by a "white" dude in Portland.

 

[Meatshield]

I could imagine the BearKillers swearing to the Family, but not to the child.

Not even the Havel family. Eric and Will Hutton (as well as the other major, yet unnamed, lieutenants) are still large and in charge...and Mike (even given his bad leadership style) had never, ever spoken a word about a monarchy (and it's implied that he was known to desire an elective leadership). Most people at the funeral likely knew/understood exactly what Signe was doing (and why she was doing it)....and no one said "hey, wait a minute!".

If you think the Corvallans and US of B were odd try to explain the Sioux agreeing to be ruled by a "white" dude in Portland.

That's actually not so egregious. The Sioux probably look at the distance between their range and the rest of "Montival", and don't see Rudi having much impact on their lives. It's not like Corvallis, where the High King can march an Army at them if they decide to back out or not pay their taxes.


A better (and far more subversive) idea would be that Rudi gets back to Oregon, ready to take up the High Kingship....only to find that he's only the delivery boy for the Sword, and someone back home is the actual intended wielder. That would fit with the Powers' track record of callous "Big Picture" actions.
Sadly, there's no established character back home who would fit the mold for High King. Maybe Nigel (too old) or Alleyne. Mike, Jr is too much a cipher (not having had more than a few paragraphs of characterization).

 

[farwalker]

My god take the worst aspects of “Avatar” and multiply it by a 100 and add an extremely condescending “atheist” message that would make Jack Chick jealous in its obnoxiousness .

It's not condescending if its true, but that's not a reason to dislike Sawyer's hominid series.
You should shun the Hominid series because its poorly written and dull.

Back to the OP, I'm kinda conflicted about the emberverse. I enjoy reading them, but I always feel, ... well unclean ... afterwards. I find that Sterling's prejudices (I could say racism, but I won't start that here) and sexism keep creeping in and ruining it for me. Furthermore I don't know if he's actually a raving conservative but he's started writting like one.

That being said, I love the setting. I actually ran a GURPS campaign in a post-change Nova-Scotia which my players really liked.

 

[farwalker]

Snip...
After all, it would ruin the neo-medieval feel if your sword and spear using armies are defeated by a group of Mormon Tech-wizards using Polybolos mounted on clockwork wagons. (Anyone else think that would make a fun timeline?) It's something that seems to happen in every 'Society is now in the new Dark Ages' work that I have seen.

Hell yeah I'd read that. I think it would be awesome.

 

[zoomar]

So I'm nearing the end of the 3rd Emberverse book and I really dislike them

Then quit already! They only get worse. I found the first one mildly interesting as a fairly well-written (Stirling is not a bad writer) exercise in a 13-year-old boy's "what would happen if all our modern stuff stopped working" apocalyptic fantasy. Half way through, however, I became increasingly bothered by the unspoken notion that Pagan wannabes, crazed professors, and SCA hobbiests would be better suited to rebuild a functional society the army, the police, farm coops, and lots of other social organizations that included fit, intelligent, and resourceful people.

Being the glutton for punishment than I am, I have read all but the latest, hoping that somehow we'd maybe start learning the backstory as to why the laws of nature changed. There was some glimmer of hope that Stirling would go there, but instead he just started writing sword and sorcery novels set in Oregon.

God, I wish he'd go back to the other half of the emberverse and fill us in on what's up with the Bronze Age US Coast Guard in Nantucket. Now that was interesting. Or more Mars and Venus stuff. Even more Draka would be better than the Emberverse.

 

[Mad Missouri]

Not even the Havel family. Eric and Will Hutton (as well as the other major, yet unnamed, lieutenants) are still large and in charge...and Mike (even given his bad leadership style) had never, ever spoken a word about a monarchy (and it's implied that he was known to desire an elective leadership). Most people at the funeral likely knew/understood exactly what Signe was doing (and why she was doing it)....and no one said "hey, wait a minute!".



That's actually not so egregious. The Sioux probably look at the distance between their range and the rest of "Montival", and don't see Rudi having much impact on their lives. It's not like Corvallis, where the High King can march an Army at them if they decide to back out or not pay their taxes.

I include the brother Eric and his children in my definition of "the family". In my mind anyone linked by "blood" is part of that neo-royal family.

I sorry but I have to disagree the Sioux joining is much more unrealistic than Corvalis or the CORA.

 

[Keith]

I have to agree that Stirling seems to be focusing on the Emberverse because of Money Dear Boy, and that it's a shame. As someone noted, the later Emberverse books (I've only read some of the extracts from those, but I've read the original trilogy) are basically standard fantasy quest stuff that happens to be set in a post-apocalyptic world. And like all good fantasy doorstopper series, the number of books required to convey X amount of plot seems to be increasing steadily (cf. Wheel of Time, Song of Ice and Fire, etc.).

I much preferred the Nantucket books (better characters, the Bronze Age history angle, and more interesting Schizo Tech), and it's too bad they'll probably never be continued while Stirling continues to milk the Emberverse.

 

[Faeelin]

Would probably seem more like Eden, a paradise we can demonstrably never return to (due to the loss of our godlike powers in the Change), rather than an example of what could be.

Why can't we have a democracy, exactly?

 

[Meatshield]

Why can't we have a democracy, exactly?

We can. Provided a sufficient majority of the populace has sufficient military power to back it up....and can bring that power to bear in a uniform fashion (read: don't have factions co-opted by Oligarchs/Monarchs, etc).

The Greeks made it work. For a while. Rome made it work. For a while (and those were ethnically homogeneous societies, with extensive group history).
The following Italian successor states didn't (the Republics tended to be non-democratic oligarchies, if not outright monarchies).

It's just significantly more efficient to slide into non-democratic forms...especially when a power group gets behind it and pushes.

The shattering nature of the Change allows the first groups with their feet under them to impose their vision (whether all-of-a-piece like the Association, or more nebulous like the Bearkillers) on everyone under their hegemony. "Democratic reforms" is generally not #1 with a bullet on the Founder's list.

 

[Faeelin]

Of course it requires work. What doesn't make sense is why everyone around the world goes back to medievalism because lol compound bows!

As for working... ask the Swiss.

 

[Meatshield]

Of course it requires work. What doesn't make sense is why everyone around the world goes back to medievalism because lol compound bows!

As for working... ask the Swiss.

Again, like the Romans. Their democracy arose from an intact society...not shell-shocked refugees and the fighters who protected them.

For the same reasons that democracies are historically rare, most post-Change societies will be undemocratic. Especially the ones that emerged from a small group exerting control over territory. That's why Corvallis is (at least pro forma) a democratic state....and the Bearkillers are not.

Much like murder, democracy requires Means, Motive, and Opportunity. Most of the post-Change nations (that we see) lack at least one.