smaller Poland after WW2

[Nephi]

First of all this isn't my map I found it browsing deviant art.

https://www.deviantart.com/matritum/art/Alternative-Poland-and-East-Germany-2-745637169

Still I found it rather discussion worthy, Stalin wasn't a big fan of Poland nor was he a fan of the Germans but it seems still plausible especially if Stalin sees the Germans as more useful allies.

So here we have a world where Germany
has more territorial integrity and less expulsions, however not much less.

A DDR which larger is stronger.

Might we see it being more of a threat to Poland in the late 80s provided history has a similar flow.

Would the Polish be more bitter?

 

[AltoRegnant]

Dunno about poland but say bye-bye to german reunification, it was controversial with otl's borders

 

[TimTurner]

this DDR would be richer, more powerful, and more able to stand on its own, though it still suffers from brain drain. Reunification is still likely because Pan-German sentiment will still be strong ITTL.
Poland here is probably more anti-Soviet and more unstable.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

These borders are ASB. After lost ww2 Germany is given land of allied nation as reward?

 

[David T]

In 1945 Stalin had by no means definitively settled on the Soviet zone in Germany becoming a permanent socialist state. He seems to have still been open to the possibility of it becoming part of a united and (at least temporarily) capitalist Germany if he could get some concessions in return, like a share in the Ruhr's production as reparations, a guarantee against remilitarization, etc. For that reason alone, he would not want Germany to extend too far east.

Also, the idea of rewarding Germany---any Germany--with predominantly Polish lands it had not even controlled between the wars would seem bizarre, and of course pointless since Stalin was if anything more sure of dominating postwar Poland than of any part of Germany not actually incorporated into the USSR.

I might add that yes, one could imagine a Poland after 1945 that would be at least marginally smaller than that of OTL. Stalin might settle for the Oder or the Oder-eastern Neisse (instead of the Oder-western Neisse) as Poland's western border. He might let Germany keep Stettin. In the east he might insist on regaining Bialystok (which he had incorporated into the Belorussian SSR from 1939-41) and on gaining areas in the Ukrainian-Polish borderland just west of the Curzon line. https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-favorable-eastern-border-from-stalin.477387/

But that's about it. There's no way Germany will be allowed to keep its interwar borders with Poland, let alone expand them eastward.

 

[Borya]

Why you can make it smaller whiteout Balystok and Kaliningrad.

 

[Cubert]

Make them own East Prussia too, and call the rest of Poland the People's General-government. While we're at it maybe cede Ukraine as like, I dunno, Commissary-led Ukraine. Maybe cede the Baltics along with Belarus as, hmm, Commissary-led East Land or something too. And maybe give the DDR Sudetenland, and give them influence over the rest of Czechia which is now the protected state of Bohemia-Moravia.

 

[Disraeli2004]

In 1945 Stalin had by no means definitively settled on the Soviet zone in Germany becoming a permanent socialist state. He seems to have still been open to the possibility of it becoming part of a united and (at least temporarily) capitalist Germany if he could get some concessions in return, like a share in the Ruhr's production as reparations, a guarantee against remilitarization, etc. For that reason alone, he would not want Germany to extend too far east.

Also, the idea of rewarding Germany---any Germany--with predominantly Polish lands it had not even controlled between the wars would seem bizarre, and of course pointless since Stalin was if anything more sure of dominating postwar Poland than of any part of Germany not actually incorporated into the USSR.

I might add that yes, one could imagine a Poland after 1945 that would be at least marginally smaller than that of OTL. Stalin might settle for the Oder or the Oder-eastern Neisse (instead of the Oder-western Neisse) as Poland's western border. He might let Germany keep Stettin. In the east he might insist on regaining Bialystok (which he had incorporated into the Belorussian SSR from 1939-41) and on gaining areas in the Ukrainian-Polish borderland just west of the Curzon line. https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-favorable-eastern-border-from-stalin.477387/

But that's about it. There's no way Germany will be allowed to keep its interwar borders with Poland, let alone expand them eastward.

Completely agree, but I've had one idea. Say there's a really massive Polish uprising and it requires an extensive military effort. Stalin could come to the conclusion that Poland is more of a threat to him than East Germany. And by now it's 1950, so the DDR and BRD have been formed. As a way of advertising the GDR as it were, could Stalin re-award those territories back to East Germany? This is a way of showing the West how fantastic everything is on the East and how generous Stalin is (obviously he's NOT, and this wouldn't work, but hey....) and trying to entice them to unite under the communist leadership. This is unlikely, but that's probably the best probability

 

[JohnBull]

I guess Germany could retain the pre-1937 boundaries, but never those pre-1914 ones. In fact, I created a TL (my signature) using those borders:

The World in 2000

 

[David T]

I guess Germany could retain the pre-1937 boundaries, but never those pre-1914 ones. In fact, I created a TL (my signature) using those borders:

The World in 2000

I do not see any way the victorious Allies will allow Germany to keep its pre-1937 borders--let alone Austria, as your map shows!

First, I just don't see Stalin allowing East Prussia to continue to exist as a base for yet another possible future German invasion of Russia--or the Western Allies being willing to break with him over that issue.

Second, it was agreed among the Allies that Poland--whose fate after all had been the nominal cause of the war--had to receive some territory from Germany to compensate it for the loss of the Ukrainian-Belarusian borderlands to the USSR. Now how much territory Poland would lose in the east and gain in the north and west was disputed. The Western Allies wanted Poland to at least keep Lwow, and they wanted Germany to have a somewhat more favorable eastern border than the Oder-western Neisse line. But that Poland would to some degree be "moved westward" was I think inescapable.

 

[JohnBull]

I do not see any way the victorious Allies will allow Germany to keep its pre-1937 borders--let alone Austria, as your map shows!

First, I just don't see Stalin allowing East Prussia to continue to exist as a base for yet another possible future German invasion of Russia--or the Western Allies being willing to break with him over that issue.

Second, it was agreed among the Allies that Poland--whose fate after all had been the nominal cause of the war--had to receive some territory from Germany to compensate it for the loss of the Ukrainian-Belarusian borderlands to the USSR. Now how much territory Poland would lose in the east and gain in the north and west was disputed. The Western Allies wanted Poland to at least keep Lwow, and they wanted Germany to have a somewhat more favorable eastern border than the Oder-western Neisse line. But that Poland would to some degree be "moved westward" was I think inescapable.

David, PoD is in 1943, with Germans way into Russian territory, We could also have micro PoDs before to enhance German position. Moreover, all Eastern Europe fell under Soviet orbit, leaving Germany very exposed and lonely which made them to cultivate good relations with both sides akin to Finland, Sweden or Austria.

In any case, I posted it on ASB as the main focus it's on the space race, not on the details of the political environment post-war.

 

[jsb]

These borders are ASB. After lost ww2 Germany is given land of allied nation as reward?

Agreed,

Completely agree, but I've had one idea. Say there's a really massive Polish uprising and it requires an extensive military effort. Stalin could come to the conclusion that Poland is more of a threat to him than East Germany. And by now it's 1950, so the DDR and BRD have been formed. As a way of advertising the GDR as it were, could Stalin re-award those territories back to East Germany? This is a way of showing the West how fantastic everything is on the East and how generous Stalin is (obviously he's NOT, and this wouldn't work, but hey....) and trying to entice them to unite under the communist leadership. This is unlikely, but that's probably the best probability

The main problem is what it will look like to everybody, the west is bound to say look at how Stalin is rewarding the fellow signers of the MR pact at the expense of the victim allies.....just how does this play in every country in europe (including Russia in private)?

 

[Brandon Sniadajewski]

I do not see any way the victorious Allies will allow Germany to keep its pre-1937 borders--let alone Austria, as your map shows!

First, I just don't see Stalin allowing East Prussia to continue to exist as a base for yet another possible future German invasion of Russia--or the Western Allies being willing to break with him over that issue.

Second, it was agreed among the Allies that Poland--whose fate after all had been the nominal cause of the war--had to receive some territory from Germany to compensate it for the loss of the Ukrainian-Belarusian borderlands to the USSR. Now how much territory Poland would lose in the east and gain in the north and west was disputed. The Western Allies wanted Poland to at least keep Lwow, and they wanted Germany to have a somewhat more favorable eastern border than the Oder-western Neisse line. But that Poland would to some degree be "moved westward" was I think inescapable.

Maybe Poland just gets the rest of former Posen and West Prussia provinces, as well as all of Danzig/Gdańsk, Upper Silesia, and maybe all of East Prussia in exchange for Lwów and environs.