Rocketry and Space Exploration in a surviving Weimar Republic

[Interdimensional Nomad]

The PoD I had in mind was Hugo Eckener running for and winning the Presidency in 1932, though I'm sure there are plenty of other ways to save the Weimar Republic. So let's say it survives, and World War 2 is averted (I assume Japan won't strike against the US all on its own). Germany already seemed to be a leader in the field, with the Opel RAK program being the first large-scale rocket program. Being home to Von Braun and the Spaceflight Society as well, they seem pretty well placed to continue being a leader in the field, perhaps advancing even faster than OTL without the Nazi Party's decimation of German technical institutions and the higher education system in general. Then again, they likely wouldn't get quite as much funding as they would in wartime (or perhaps they could; Germany seemed to be turning more nationalistic in the 1930s even if the rise of the Nazis is averted, and it may be picked up as a prestige project). But it is the Weimar Republic; hamstrung by war reparations, its just-recovered economy crashed again by the Great Depression, and watched with suspicion by Britain and France (who may or may not cry foul if they suspect Germany is developing something they have no counter to).

So my questions mainly are: Would Weimar Germany have the power, money, or political will to be an industry leader in the field of rocketry, like in OTL? If so (I suspect so, but who knows), would they build a space program, and how soon? And how well might they do against other players in the field? And who might those other players be, with or without Germany among them? I suspect the US and the USSR would be (the US still being the world's largest economy if not by as big a margin as OTL, and the USSR having a huge advantage over OTL by not having lost 20 million of its citizens and taken a staggering amount of war damage, respectively). But with the world being a little more multipolar, I imagine there might be room for more.

 

[Ijon Tichy]

Does this help provide an outlet for the cultural forces (and perhaps even the social/economic forces?) that otherwise went into Nazism and its rejuvenated German militarism?

You'll have read Louvish's Resurrections from the Dustbin of History - the regime there is a successful Spartacist Germany, but there's a throwaway line about "soon we will be sending Weltanauts to the Moon and Planets".

Was Weltanaut a German synonym for Astronaut and Cosmonaut, or was it Louvish's invention?

 

[Garrison]

They showed some interest in rocketry but I can't see a less militaristic Weimar being willing to spend much of its limited resources on something so speculative.

 

[Interdimensional Nomad]

Does this help provide an outlet for the cultural forces (and perhaps even the social/economic forces?) that otherwise went into Nazism and its rejuvenated German militarism?

You'll have read Louvish's Resurrections from the Dustbin of History - the regime there is a successful Spartacist Germany, but there's a throwaway line about "soon we will be sending Weltanauts to the Moon and Planets".

Was Weltanaut a German synonym for Astronaut and Cosmonaut, or was it Louvish's invention?

I suspect it could indeed provide an outlet for the nationalism that was growing in Germany (and throughout Europe) in the 1930s, and this was the time when Eckener was turning the Zeppelin into a symbol of German pride and technical achievement, so I can imagine his government doing the same for another fielld Germany leads in. I don't think Germany has much chance of going Communist or Spartacist; Eckener was a proponent of democracy and the USSR next door wasn't looking like such a nice place.

Weltanaut does sound like a great name. Though I must admit I'm more partial to Raumfahrer.

 

[Interdimensional Nomad]

They showed some interest in rocketry but I can't see a less militaristic Weimar being willing to spend much of its limited resources on something so speculative.

I do question how development of rocketry would (or could) advance without them being developed as weapons (although that idea's definitely gonna be floated too), so it's certainly possible that they would shelve the project. Maybe Opel RAK being shelved by the Great Depression could end their efforts. Though they'll be kicking themselves once someone else develops space travel in that case.

Then again, this is the same Weimar Republic that was leading the airship industry (and touting it as a source of national pride), was starting to work on the jet engine, and was building high-speed trains, so they didn't exactly strike me as technologically conservative.

 

[Garrison]

I do question how development of rocketry would (or could) advance without them being developed as weapons (although that idea's definitely gonna be floated too), so it's certainly possible that they would shelve the project. Maybe Opel RAK being shelved by the Great Depression could end their efforts. Though they'll be kicking themselves once someone else develops space travel in that case.

Then again, this is the same Weimar Republic that was leading the airship industry (and touting it as a source of national pride), was starting to work on the jet engine, and was building high-speed trains, so they didn't exactly strike me as technologically conservative.

Honestly I assumed this was about them developing them as weapons. Rocketry for spaceflight is regarded as a fantasy in the 1920s, just look at how Goddard was treated.

 

[Interdimensional Nomad]

Honestly I assumed this was about them developing them as weapons. Rocketry for spaceflight is regarded as a fantasy in the 1920s, just look at how Goddard was treated.

Either or, or likely both, as in OTL. A nationalistic Germany may see rockets as a convenient workaround to the restrictions on air forces imposed by the Versailles Treaty. And I don't imagine such a government would get along with the Soviets either (or Fascist Italy perhaps), so the political will may be there.

 

[marathag]

They showed some interest in rocketry but I can't see a less militaristic Weimar being willing to spend much of its limited resources on something so speculative.

They still built Pocket Battleships, to get around Treaty limitations
They may continue on Rocketry, as that had no limitations, unlike Artillery.

would thye go for something A4/V-2 sized?
I don't think so, but a smaller liquid fueled rocket, maybe the size of the Viking Sounding Rocket

 

[Interdimensional Nomad]

They still built Pocket Battleships, to get around Treaty limitations
They may continue on Rocketry, as that had no limitations, unlike Artillery.

would thye go for something A4/V-2 sized?
I don't think so, but a smaller liquid fueled rocket, maybe the size of the Viking Sounding Rocket

I agree that getting around treaty limitations would be the primary motivation for their initial rocket development. An A4 sized rocket (might even still be called that since the Kummersdorf research program was already running before 1933) seems about inevitable if they want a strategic weapon. Dunno about the motive, but a conservative Germany in the 1930s having an antagonistic relationship with the USSR would probably work. This is probably a best-case scenario for rocketry development; with the program benefitting from wartime-like funding from the standoff with the Soviets, and from not dealing with the huge setback to technical institutions from the Nazis taking power.

Not sure how Britain and France would react to that though. On the one hand, Germany would be clearly trying to sidestep their treaty limitations, which is cause for concern and perhaps their demanding the program stop. On the other hand, they seemed all too happy to sit back and watch Nazi Germany go through its military buildup in OTL.

It may take until one or more other countries start taking up rocketry in a serious way before they start seriously considering launching satellites, and eventually humans, into orbit. Then again, Von Braun (likely the leader of the program as OTL) was the head of the Spaceflight Society, and it looks like they were getting funding from the German military even before the Nazis' rise to power (and indeed, lack of treaty limitations on rockets was one of the main reasons they got the funding). If they have enough success to prove themselves and gain interest in the 1930s, they might just advance fast enough for an orbital launch, say, by the late 1940s.

 

[marathag]

If they have enough success to prove themselves and gain interest in the 1930s, they might just advance fast enough for an orbital launch, say, by the late 1940s.

Nah, it a huge effort, even to a A4 without wartime loosening of the taps for funding
No Bucks, no Buck Rodgers

 

[Interdimensional Nomad]

Nah, it a huge effort, even to a A4 without wartime loosening of the taps for funding
No Bucks, no Buck Rodgers

Yeah, I would agree with that. Maybe a decade longer or so until that happens, if it does. On the other hand though, continuing to play nice with the other European great powers and abiding by the Treaty of Versailles would mean foregoing the conventional military buildup that the Nazis did, so that wouldn't get in the way of rocketry funding nearly as much as it did in OTL.

 

[Polish Eagle]

I agree that getting around treaty limitations would be the primary motivation for their initial rocket development. An A4 sized rocket (might even still be called that since the Kummersdorf research program was already running before 1933) seems about inevitable if they want a strategic weapon. Dunno about the motive, but a conservative Germany in the 1930s having an antagonistic relationship with the USSR would probably work. This is probably a best-case scenario for rocketry development; with the program benefitting from wartime-like funding from the standoff with the Soviets, and from not dealing with the huge setback to technical institutions from the Nazis taking power.

Not sure how Britain and France would react to that though. On the one hand, Germany would be clearly trying to sidestep their treaty limitations, which is cause for concern and perhaps their demanding the program stop. On the other hand, they seemed all too happy to sit back and watch Nazi Germany go through its military buildup in OTL.

It may take until one or more other countries start taking up rocketry in a serious way before they start seriously considering launching satellites, and eventually humans, into orbit. Then again, Von Braun (likely the leader of the program as OTL) was the head of the Spaceflight Society, and it looks like they were getting funding from the German military even before the Nazis' rise to power (and indeed, lack of treaty limitations on rockets was one of the main reasons they got the funding). If they have enough success to prove themselves and gain interest in the 1930s, they might just advance fast enough for an orbital launch, say, by the late 1940s.

Before 1933, the Weimar Republic was actually in a sort-of alliance with the USSR. They operated joint fighter-pilot and tanker schools and cooperated on chemical weapons development. These were all closed down IOTL in 1933.

Perhaps such cooperation would expand into the realm of rocketry--and so TTL Werner von Braun might work directly with Korolev and Glushko.

 

[Interdimensional Nomad]

Before 1933, the Weimar Republic was actually in a sort-of alliance with the USSR. They operated joint fighter-pilot and tanker schools and cooperated on chemical weapons development. These were all closed down IOTL in 1933.

Perhaps such cooperation would expand into the realm of rocketry--and so TTL Werner von Braun might work directly with Korolev and Glushko.

I suspect that Germany would turn rightwards in the 1930s (whether Nazi or not). The continuation of their good relations isn't something I've entertained much, but upon further reading I agree it's very possible. If they cooperated on chemical weapons, I suppose cooperating on rocket-based weapons would be possible too. Would be cause for concern for Britain and France, I imagine.

The Spanish Civil War might be a little early to test the first A-series rockets in the field.

 

[Shevek23]

They showed some interest in rocketry but I can't see a less militaristic Weimar being willing to spend much of its limited resources on something so speculative.

The advantage of the Army spending money on rocket research is that it was a loophole in Versailles--none of the Entente interests imposing the treaty considered rockets as a practical weapon system, so there was no mention of limiting or denying German rights to develop them. In the 1930s context, and without anyone taking seriously the possibility of nuclear weapons small enough to be lifted on a plausible rocket, the Germans might talk the Entente powers into backing off and letting Germany develop a rocket-based and purportedly (and not impossibly, actually) defensive system based on exploiting the loophole, as a quid pro quo of compliance or near compliance with other terms of the Treaty. The value of rocket-based artillery is speculative and unproven and as a deterrent it cuts both ways; the Germans are unsure they can rely on them, but the status quo powers that be are unsure how easy or hard it would be to take on a Germany so armed. If both sides want peace first of all, no one may ever know by putting it to the test.

Meanwhile while I don't think it exonerates the complicity of von Braun and his associates of guilt for accepting SS and Reich terms for support and their personal actions using the Reich slave labor system OTL, I don't doubt von Braun himself was mainly motivated by desires to make a space rocket ship and begin interplanetary exploration, and while on a shoestring budget and under pressure to keep focus on militarily useful applications, over time incrementally evolving something that can put an object similar to Sputnik into orbit, and then later some kind of recoverable capsule capable of carrying a human and landing them on Earth again.

Naturally aside from categorically forbidding Germans to develop rockets specifically, the Entente powers have the option of discouraging any military spending whatsoever, or even strong-arming the Republic into total disarmament--but politically speaking, I think post-Locarno German especially under the leadership of someone as cosmopolitan and liberal as Hugo Eckener would be given some latitude--say a conventional force comparable to Czechoslovakia's, minus any war aircraft whatsoever. (The administrators of the Versailles Treaty tried initially to categorically forbid all German aviation completely, but by the early '20s had backed off on that). Of course the Republic is strapped for revenues all across the board in the early 1930s and can ill afford a massive investment in some blue-sky wonder tech--but the same was true of the Third Reich in the same years after all. Resources can be found, and if the British and other moderate western European powers encourage acceptance of modest German military establishment, a portion of the funds can be diverted. The motive of the various liberal powers to be a bit permissive with German militarization to modest levels is their fear of the potential of the Soviet Union; if Germany is not completely helpless, and its standing small army can be a nucleus of rapid general mobilization in case a feared Soviet conquest push is sweeping the border state armies of Poland and Romania before it, then in that emergency the Germans can be hoped to be a bulwark for the western nations. Mollifying the French by forbidding the Germans any air force entirely might in turn be motive to exploit the rocketry loophole; a fraction of the funds that otherwise would go toward a modest German Luftwaffe goes to rockets instead in the hope that they can substitute well enough to at least prevent rival neighbor powers free to develop air craft from scouting and bombing Germany with impunity, and offer deterring counterattack.

 

[Interdimensional Nomad]

At this point, I think I can imagine an acceptable amount of motive for a rocket program of a relatively similar size as OTL. While not benefitting quite from wartime amounts of funding, I imagine that less funding competition from the rebuilding of a conventional military, a more prosperous German tech sector not poisoned by Nazi ideology, and not having their efforts constantly thwarted by Allied bombing raids means that the German rocketry program could perhaps advance at a roughly similar pace to OTL.

I'm a little more confused about their relations with their Soviet neighbours. On the one hand, they did seem loosely allied to each other, cooperating militarily and in sharing knowledge. On the other hand, it seems like the Western powers saw Germany as a potential bulwark against possible expanding Soviet influence in Europe, and a possible military deterrent to them.

 

[Voltzz]

I suspect that Germany would turn rightwards in the 1930s (whether Nazi or not). The continuation of their good relations isn't something I've entertained much, but upon further reading I agree it's very possible.

Actually the German right wing especially the DNVP was in favor of an even closer relationship with the SU (with the goal of dismantling Poland and rebuilding German military strenght) than the moderate parties. Because for those, this stood in the way of good relation with Britain and France.

 

[Interdimensional Nomad]

Actually the German right wing especially the DNVP was in favor of an even closer relationship with the SU (with the goal of dismantling Poland and rebuilding German military strenght) than the moderate parties. Because for those, this stood in the way of good relation with Britain and France.

As long as Germany, Britain, and France are all democracies, I imagine the chance of a military confrontation is low. Though there might still be the chance of rivalry, and in that case competition in the field of rocketry (including weapons), and later in space travel.

 

[anotherlurker]

Dismantling the Versailles treaty was on the to-do list of all parties. The military will ream on schedule and von Braun will likely get his budget cut in favor of real artillery (and Krupps pockets) right when it all starts showing real results - the A5, a scaled down A4, flew in 1939. Space technology is probably set back 20 to 30 years as a result.

 

[Interdimensional Nomad]

Dismantling the Versailles treaty was on the to-do list of all parties. The military will ream on schedule and von Braun will likely get his budget cut in favor of real artillery (and Krupps pockets) right when it all starts showing real results - the A5, a scaled down A4, flew in 1939. Space technology is probably set back 20 to 30 years as a result.

They could rearm, sure, but I don't really see a reason why they would to a similar extent as in OTL. Weimar Germany doesn't really seem to have any territorial ambitions, and any rearmament would certainly be much less than the one carried out by the Nazis (which vastly overstretched them economically and was only sustainable by invading and looting their neighbours).

 

[anotherlurker]

They could rearm, sure, but I don't really see a reason why they would to a similar extent as in OTL. Weimar Germany doesn't really seem to have any territorial ambitions, and any rearmament would certainly be much less than the one carried out by the Nazis (which vastly overstretched them economically and was only sustainable by invading and looting their neighbours).

What's the size of the French army at the time? Apropriate for the German one would be that + 30 % to account for a lack of a navy and higher population. In any case, the army size matters not. The rocketry hail mary was thrown to circumvent treaties, when that stops being necessary it will cease due to lack of meglomanic aspirations in the government which von Braun could exploit to keep the money flowing.