RN writes the washington naval treaty

[perfectgeneral]

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/help-me-write-the-washington-naval-treaty.226946/

What if the RN seek to limit new battleships to 15inch guns so as to keep their "modern" battleships at the cutting edge for longer? They bring other powers to the negotiating table with G3 and N3, but are willing to cut back to something more like J3.

 

[Thomas1195]

This would require an earlier British naval expansion from 1919-1920, so that the G3 would be actually under construction, which would give them a better bargaining position.
I expect RN would put a 6 or 5.5:5:3 rather than like OTL.
Besides, they might even put forward a rule that each power would be allowed to replace a limited number of capital ships (maybe from 1 to 3) for each 3 to 5 year period.

 

[Some Bloke]

Assuming similar limitations on total and individual tonnage, and using OTLs specs as a guideline, the 15" Nelson class would have a top speed of around 27 knots (based on the original KGV design).

 

[perfectgeneral]

Assuming similar limitations on total and individual tonnage, and using OTLs specs as a guideline, the 15" Nelson class would have a top speed of around 27 knots (based on the original KGV design).

Useful.

 

[sparky42]

Assuming similar limitations on total and individual tonnage, and using OTLs specs as a guideline, the 15" Nelson class would have a top speed of around 27 knots (based on the original KGV design).

Since the US and Japan already have 16" ships, I'd expect the RN to still get Nelrod, they wouldn't allow themselves to not match the others.

 

[Some Bloke]

True but the scenario limits new builds to 15". Maybe a new, improved 15" gun design ...

 

[perfectgeneral]

Since the US and Japan already have 16" ships, I'd expect the RN to still get Nelrod, they wouldn't allow themselves to not match the others.

But these are the carrot that allows the RN a larger total tonnage.

 

[Some Bloke]

Maybe they'll try to blag another Hood and use the J3 as the basis of the 27 knotter.

 

[sparky42]

True but the scenario limits new builds to 15". Maybe a new, improved 15" gun design ...

But by the time the Treaty is signed off the Colorado's are done, so like OTL I'd see the RN being given permission to build new ships, and at that you get back to the political impact to the UK if they don't have the equal of the other powers (remember only a few years ago you had the public declaring "we want 8 and we won't wait")

 

[sparky42]

But these are the carrot that allows the RN a larger total tonnage.

So what accept 15" ships instead of building 16" ones? Will the nuances of better 15" ships sell domestically for the RN and the Government?

 

[perfectgeneral]

That 12x 15"/50 design at the top is more than the equal of a Colorado. An interim 9x 15"/42 Nelrod certainly keeps it in check in the meantime.

 

[dave_r_gilbert]

I think the biggest change the RN could get would be in maximum cruiser size and guns.
Instead of 10,000 tons and 8" guns a larger number of smaller ships is in the british interest.
8,000 tons and 6" guns is far better for the RN.
If that means sacrificing the Hawkins class, so be it.

I think the negotiators failed to realise that the 10,000 ton limit would become the only size of cruiser, rather than the maximum size of cruiser.

 

[perfectgeneral]

So the RN limits size and guns once more in a theme across the treaty? Aiming for number of ships advantages?

 

[CalBear]

Short version is that the Treaty doesn't happen.

Great Britain goes bankrupt trying to keep up with the U.S. which has the money, and without the WNT, the motivation to outbuild both the UK and Japan. In all likelihood this strangles the "special relationship" while its still in the crib.

From there the butterflies get so thick you can't see through them.

 

[perfectgeneral]

Short version is that the Treaty doesn't happen.

Great Britain goes bankrupt trying to keep up with the U.S. which has the money, and without the WNT, the motivation to out build both the UK and Japan. In all likelihood this strangles the "special relationship" while its still in the crib.

From there the butterflies get so thick you can't see through them.

So why did the treaty happen IOTL? Do you have a reason for your shutdown view?

Short version, we all die. Where is the fun in that?

 

[RamscoopRaider]

So why did the treaty happen IOTL?

Because the US got what it wanted, parity with the RN in tonnage, an extra 16" ship over either UK or Japan, the 10,000 ton 8" armed cruisers it had been playing around with designs for, Japan at the minimum ratio they would accept, and the ability to do a proper conversion of Lex and Sara


The US proposed the Treaty because it didn't want to spend the money on a huge fleet if it didn't have to, the UK and Japan accepted because they couldn't spend the money to match the USN without severe consequences

 

[King Augeas]

Short version is that the Treaty doesn't happen.

Great Britain goes bankrupt trying to keep up with the U.S. which has the money, and without the WNT, the motivation to outbuild both the UK and Japan. In all likelihood this strangles the "special relationship" while its still in the crib.

From there the butterflies get so thick you can't see through them.

My understanding was that Congress was deeply unenthusiastic about funding the US's existing fleet programme?

 

[jsb]

I think you are thinking this far to much from the USN point of view rather than the real civilian power in the US,

I think its relatively easy to get a better treaty fro the UK as long as it looks good to the USA on paper,

Things like offering to just build 2 more 15" Hoods as long as you let them be overweight.... sell it as cost saving (the real reason for everybody at the treaty)... You can probably cut G3 with 9x15" to 41,000t and nobody would say anything till late 20s when they are completed.

 

[jsb]

My understanding was that Congress was deeply unenthusiastic about funding the US's existing fleet programme?

Yes nobody (civilian) wants to build anything really and they are not very good designs v 20/30s ones (to slow and no room for modifications).

 

[James Ricker]

Assuming similar limitations on total and individual tonnage, and using OTLs specs as a guideline, the 15" Nelson class would have a top speed of around 27 knots (based on the original KGV design).

Given the disappointment in the 16" guns of the Nel/Rods a improved 15" gun would have been a better choice.