Renovation: An Eastern Roman Timeline

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Would the Western Schism still happen? Its a good 30 years after the POD.

Point taken, but there would still be a return to Rome, because according to this thread, the longer the Papacy stays in Avignon, the more its secular and moral authority would decline.

That said, you're right; a schism depends on how much the French want the Pope to stay in their backyard.
 
Point taken, but there would still be a return to Rome, because according to this thread, the longer the Papacy stays in Avignon, the more its secular and moral authority would decline.

That said, you're right; a schism depends on how much the French want the Pope to stay in their backyard.

The foundations for the schism were already there, I agree. The more interesting question is how the various rulers can take advantage of it in this timeline, or how exactly it happens here relative to OTL.
 

JJohnson

Banned
With a revived Eastern Roman Empire, it would also be interesting to see if the western church develops some of its 'extra-biblical' doctrines the same way - the mariology, veneration of saints, trans-substantiation, indulgences, justification, the seven sacraments, etc.
 
With a revived Eastern Roman Empire, it would also be interesting to see if the western church develops some of its 'extra-biblical' doctrines the same way - the mariology, veneration of saints, trans-substantiation, indulgences, justification, the seven sacraments, etc.
Also about that, if Catholicism changes a bit, than would Protestantism ever come to be? If it does than we will see some butterflies in what it is.
 
With a revived Eastern Roman Empire, it would also be interesting to see if the western church develops some of its 'extra-biblical' doctrines the same way - the mariology, veneration of saints, trans-substantiation, indulgences, justification, the seven sacraments, etc.

Didn't some of those doctrines occur before the PoD? Then again, I'm not exactly a theological expert.
 

Deleted member 67076

Also about that, if Catholicism changes a bit, than would Protestantism ever come to be? If it does than we will see some butterflies in what it is.
There's probably going to be some sort of movement against the Church's practices and excess of this time period. If it will be a full break away or another split remains to be decided.
 
What is the fate of Demetrius Cydones in this timeline? On the one hand, his family supported Kantakouzenos and he himself rose under that Emperor, but on the other hand, he was definitely an able man and a humanist. Would he still be Pro-Catholic in this timeline?

This might also be of help.
 
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Deleted member 67076

I won't answer anything on Orthodoxy yet. Im still doing research with that and consulting a couple experts I know on Orthodox theology and history.

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...We know that Alex has started to work on the navy full time again, and has basically delegated running the government to his supporters, which obviously includes John V. So this is the part where the guy finally takes power?

Yep. Its a nice, smooth transition of power where you see John begins to start managing things. At first little by little, but as time goes on Alexios begins to delegate more responsibilities to him and his circle, and by the end of the 1350s John is pretty much running the show unopposed.

Interesting. Was this something Alexios had planned?

Yes. At this point in time, John’s been basically Alex’s personal assistant for a couple years now, he’s been groomed. So obviously he’s the first choice to delegate running the administration. Also, I should note

Ok, so now that John’s in charge, what’s he like? What’s he do?

In a word: Energetic. John's all about action, and he's a very involved ruler. He takes gusto with his job as the Roman Emperor and is very much involved in managing day to day things. Probably something he picked up from Alexios.

And he's like this from day 1. John’s technically been emperor since he was nine, and he’s been raised with that in mind. His entire life up to this point was nothing but a preparation for when he’s calling the shots. So when Alex calls him and starts delegating real power to him, the guy was absolutely anxious to put that newfound power to the test.

With that in mind, the first thing John does is he starts building everywhere. Just like Justinian before him, he goes on a building spree. Roads, aqueducts, forts, grain houses, the arsenal at Constantinople, etc. Everywhere around the empire he starts a series of ambitious building projects, funded by the imperial treasury of course.

Money isn’t an issue?

No, not necessarily. Remember, the empire by this point has started saving up a decent amount of money so this doesn’t strain anyone too much. And of course we have the fact the state is in the middle of an economic boom. That adds up quite a lot.

Oh, ok.

Yeah, so this building spree is mostly concentrated in the recently conquered Duchy of Athens but it does a lot to improve John’s image and integrate the new people. Sure, they might be Orthodox, they might speak Greek and they might have been Roman just a generation ago, but it never hurts to improve the lives of the people. Also makes the guys living just across from the imperials in Epirus realize how good their neighbors in the empire have it, and how bad their own overlords are...

Of course. And this raises another question: Does building up Athens lead into the invasion of Epirus a few years later?

Absolutely. John was very interested in restoring old lands of the empire just like pretty much every ruler in Romania. However, unlike the recent batch of rulers, John preferred to be much more underhanded when it comes to things like this. He liked to plan and he liked to stack the odds in his favor, doing things like weakening the enemy state if he could and getting as much allies as possible.

And here it worked perfectly. In Athens, improving the land did more than just improving the logistics and defensibility of the territory so that armies can move faster; it did a lot to really stir up disapproval amongst the average peasant in Epirus. John hoped that when he invaded, he would get as many defectors as he could to make his job easier.

Along with this there was bribery of the chieftains and other strongmen of Albania into siding with the empire and fermenting revolt, to allow the army to roll over as quickly as possible.

Furthermore, there was with the whole policy that we've mentioned a while back, of weakening the enemies of the state by dumping cheap goods into the region and turning the despotate into an economic satellite. So when the war begins and the supplies stop coming, the enemy state is going to undergo a shock when resources get scarce. With all these factors in play, the empire prepares to invade.

And as we know, it worked perfectly. The empire builds up its armed forces, starts a crisis to justify an invasion and promptly annexes Epirus back into the imperial fold.

[Laughs] I wouldn’t call it perfectly. The Albanians took longer than expected to win over, and sporadic fighting from the former Epirote forces, now brigands, continued the fight from the mountains for a few months after.

Now you’re just being picky.

Its my job as a professor you know?

[Rolls Eyes] Of course it is professor... But yeah, moving on. Its 1362, the Romans have invaded with a flimsy excuse that Epirote tariffs were making trading difficult for their merchants, the recently bloated army rolls in, blah blah, and a combination of all you just said allows the army to seize the land by next year.

...What’s next?

John cements control of Epirus the same way the Romans did Athens. Lowering taxes, building infrastructure, crushing the nobility and other opposing strongmen and divvying up lands amongst supporters. You know the drill by now. Its got multiple benefits: it cements loyalty, it makes a recently conquered region much more profitable, it helps the population grow, and it allows for more people to recruit for the armed forces.

But after that John quits the aggression and starts works hard on diplomacy. The aim is to get Romania be taken seriously as a power again and generally improving relations with other states. So after a few months of planning, he in turn starts delegating power to keep things running smoothly while he's away and embarks on a tour of some nearby states. First off is Hungary, where he and king Louis bond over a mutual dislike of Serbia. Although there is a funny story about Louis refusing to step off his horse to meet the emperor, when John went off his to pay his respects to Louis personally, and the two spent the day arguing over who deserves more respect. Probably apocryphal, but that’s not important. Hungary and Romania agree to trade more as Rome promises Hungary the Dalmatian coast should Venice start something.

After that, the emperor goes off to Bulgaria. There the old Tsar Ivan Alexander and John agree to renew the treaty of alliance signed nearly 20ish years earlier in the civil war of the 1340s. There are also some important trade deals done to cement that, mostly that Romania agrees to start buying more grain from Bulgaria than from anywhere else. If you’re curious, the Romans do follow through with the deal but that’s mostly because right after its signed the Golden Horde goes to hell with civil war and it becomes much easier to get buy Bulgarian. What the emperor doesn't know is that the Tsar is planning to invade Serbia in the coming years and needs to secure his flank. But that isn't important at the time.

Afterwards there comes a set of diplomatic tours of the Italian states, going in order from Naples, Florence, Genoa, Milan and Savoy. Like before, the goal is to make Romania appear better, cement alliances and trade deals. Results here are more… mixed, as Italy is firmly under the Genoese trading dominion but overall its a positive experience. You get things like Genoa and Florence agreeing to set up banks in the empire, a delaying of the inevitable standoff between Genoa and Romania, and an alliance with Savoy in the making.

That’s quite a lot of places. Anywhere else?

It is. And yeah, there’s 2 more places John goes: The Candarid emirate and the Aydinids. This here is a bit different than before: its to negotiate an anti-Ottoman coalition, which if successful would see the partitioning of the Ottoman emirate between the 3 and John would be hailed as the hero who began the reconquest of the Anatolian heartlands. The two emirs agree to it, as they both have their reasons to knock down the Ottomans.

The Balance of power must be maintained and all.

Minor power foreign policy 101.

Would you say these diplomatic tours were a success?

On the whole? Yes. The empire renewed its most important alliances at the time: Bulgaria, the Aydinids and Genoa, and it cemented 2 new ones with Hungary and Savoy. These would prove extremely important in the future. Now it might seem weird that I put Genoa as part of the ‘most important alliances’ group what with hindsight and all we know that Genoa and the empire are going to clash just a few years down the road… but this did quite a lot to ease the growing tensions that were developing from both moving into a zone of competition. The more things are delayed, the more both sides have time to rest and recover.

Then there’s the whole setting up of banks thing which did help the imperials out with their finances as time went on. That’s pretty much the major successes

Oh, ok. That makes sense. Would you say Romania’s reputation improved with this?

Hmm... Not that much, I'd say. I mean, it did for certain countries, but for the general mood in Europe towards the empire… they wouldn’t care too much. Romania hasn’t shown herself as a major power or anything so they won’t put much thought towards ‘that small Greek empire in the east’.

I see. And up next is the war against the Ottomans right?

Not just yet. By the time the emperor is back in Constantinople, it late 1364. The war against the Ottomans starts in 1369, a full 5 years later. Things closer to home take up the attention of the empire before then.
 
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GdwnsnHo

Banned
I'm curious if the Romans will take advantage of the Bulgarian invasion of Serbia? After all, Rhomania, Bulgaria and Hungary could all enjoy taking a bite out of Serbia. Plus it could allow them to test their army one more time.

Though with the impending standoff, is there not a chance that the Italian states may approve of having Genoa knocked off of its perch? Especially Aragon - and help in that aim?

But yay! All the lovely new infrastructure, that'll seriously help in the long run, assuming it doesn't get destroyed!

I'm curious what might happen with the development of Roman banks? It looks dangerously like that the Romans are happy to take over trade, but are leaving foreigners in charge of their banking system? This sounds particularly dangerous.

Also, are we going to see an official position to permanently focus on trade? Something akin to the Megas Droungarios but for trade, or as an appendage to that office? It'd be a shame to see all these changes happen, but have the efforts degrade as there is nobody focusing on that aspect. - I petition for an Office of Trade and a Office of Banking! (Assuming that those aren't already things.)
 
Long time lurker, big fan.

This is a great update, and I love how you mix up the format; the variety in style and focus is great. This is probably my favorite timeline on AH right now, thanks!
 
We know that Alex has started to work on the navy full time again, and has basically delegated running the government to his supporters, which obviously includes John V. So this is the part where the guy finally takes power?

Yep. Its a nice, smooth transition of power where you see John begins to start managing things. At first little by little, but as time goes on Alexios begins to delegate more responsibilities to him and his circle, and by the end of the 1350s John is pretty much running the show unopposed.

Interesting. Was this something Alexios had planned?

Yes. At this point in time, John’s been basically Alex’s personal assistant for a couple years now, he’s been groomed. So obviously he’s the first choice to delegate running the administration.


Ok, so now that John’s in charge, what’s he like? What’s he do?

In a word: Energetic. John's all about action, and he's a very involved ruler. He takes gusto with his job as the Roman Emperor and is very much involved in managing day to day things. Probably something he picked up from Alexios.

And he's like this from day 1. John’s technically been emperor since he was nine, and he’s been raised with that in mind. His entire life up to this point was nothing but a preparation for when he’s calling the shots. So when Alex calls him and starts delegating real power to him, the guy was absolutely anxious to put that newfound power to the test.

Could this style of power transfer be implemented long term into the process of Imperial succession, from what I can tell if it is done correctly it would allow for a series of competent emperors under whom the empire can stage a major comeback?
 
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Hope you don't mind me pinching your map Soverihn.:p


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Deleted member 67076

Squee! You never disappoint.
:D
So how's the military reforms?.They basically have to build an army from the scratch again.
Not happening for now. There's no real shock that says to the Romans "Damn, this isn't working". As I've said before, at this time period the only complaints were the lack of men and equipment.

They'll get that soon enough.
I'm curious if the Romans will take advantage of the Bulgarian invasion of Serbia? After all, Rhomania, Bulgaria and Hungary could all enjoy taking a bite out of Serbia. Plus it could allow them to test their army one more time.
Yes.

Though with the impending standoff, is there not a chance that the Italian states may approve of having Genoa knocked off of its perch? Especially Aragon - and help in that aim?
Actually, not that much. Milan is allied with Genoa, Savoy has no real maritime interest as of yet, Florence is a land power, Pisa has been crippled and Naples has more important things to worry about. Not sure about the Papal states.

But yay! All the lovely new infrastructure, that'll seriously help in the long run, assuming it doesn't get destroyed!

I'm curious what might happen with the development of Roman banks? It looks dangerously like that the Romans are happy to take over trade, but are leaving foreigners in charge of their banking system? This sounds particularly dangerous.
Tell that to the Spanish Empire. :p

For now the banking system isn't in trouble, but it will take awhile for a native system to develop, but for the time being hiring experts from Italy is the most efficient way to set up a reliable financial system.

Also, are we going to see an official position to permanently focus on trade? Something akin to the Megas Droungarios but for trade, or as an appendage to that office? It'd be a shame to see all these changes happen, but have the efforts degrade as there is nobody focusing on that aspect. - I petition for an Office of Trade and a Office of Banking! (Assuming that those aren't already things.)
Yes. We will see specialized positions pertaining to commercial affairs, but that's down the line. Right now things are rather ad hoc with the navy and the commercial department intertwined.

Great update!! :D:D

Loving your work! :D:D

Long time lurker, big fan.

This is a great update, and I love how you mix up the format; the variety in style and focus is great. This is probably my favorite timeline on AH right now, thanks!
:)

Mixing up styles is how I try to avoid being bored as a writer, so I'm glad I can have fun and people still enjoy it.
Could this style of power transfer be implemented long term into the process of Imperial succession, from what I can tell if it is done correctly it would allow for a series of competent emperors under whom the empire can stage a major comeback?
This is something Ive been thinking about- a system of tutorage for imperial princes in order to prepare them for ruling. However, this might cause the problem of successors being isolated from the world at hand like it did for some Ottoman sultans.
Hope you don't mind me pinching your map Soverihn.:p

686Pbgk.jpg
 
Perhaps it was said and I missed it, but if John V is visiting Italy, why wouldn't he visit his cousins in Montferrat?
 

Deleted member 67076

Perhaps it was said and I missed it, but if John V is visiting Italy, why wouldn't he visit his cousins in Montferrat?
The meta answer is because I forgot (sorry about that), but the official one would be because Montferrat isn't a major power and can't really do much, and Savoy is a much better prospect. But its very likely the emperor did visit the march on his tour of Italy at some point since its between major powers on the peninsula.
 
The meta answer is because I forgot (sorry about that), but the official one would be because Montferrat isn't a major power and can't really do much, and Savoy is a much better prospect. But its very likely the emperor did visit the march on his tour of Italy at some point since its between major powers on the peninsula.

While that certainly makes sense, one suspects that there would be political reasons to make the visit, even though the state is landlocked and has little to offer the Empire.
 
While that certainly makes sense, one suspects that there would be political reasons to make the visit, even though the state is landlocked and has little to offer the Empire.
Yes,I think it would have been considered impolite if he traveled near it but didn't bother to visit his relatives there.

:D

Not happening for now. There's no real shock that says to the Romans "Damn, this isn't working". As I've said before, at this time period the only complaints were the lack of men and equipment.

That's really dumb of them.Did they really expect they can fight a war with a third rate militia force?I can't believe someone as smart as Alex never thought about this.
 
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