Remember the Texas! The United States in World War II (an alternate history)

[marathag]

The USN battleships have only 3 inch guns and machines however and are sorely lacking those 40 mm and 20 mm

Notice how well the 3" and 1.1" did from the chart I posted. Now the .50s and esp. .30s were a waste of men and space taken, but the other did pretty well in 1942.
Too bad the Royal Navy findings were not widely disseminated after the war, unlike USN for AA effectiveness.
Would be nice to see a 'rounds per bird' for RN AA types, by year

 

[marathag]

Noticed a minor typo. You have the Buffalo labeled as F3F. It was actually F2A. The F3F was a Grumman biplane delivered to the Navy in 36 and retired by 41

F2A-1 would have been as effective as the Hawk 75 was against the Me-109 over France. Very effective.
The later Buffaloes were slugs compared to the first model.
That's why Grumman lost the initial fighter contract.

 

[Kurt_Steiner]

So, the Germans must be quite short of torpedo-bombers to press the Fokker TVIII into service in such a function.

Another "So"

So, Cerberus is going to end quite bad this time with the US taks forces on the way. The He 111 and the Uboaten might have a field day or a bad day, depending on their luck

 

[CalBear]

Aubrey Fitch is USN (CV Force W) and is a naval aviator and did ok at Coral Sea and really well as AirSoPac during Guadalcanal and later Deputy CNO (Air). Not bad really
Cooke (USN) had a good career too and while not a Avation guy, does have a broad range of experience, including as a submariner. RN Admiral Seyfrit commanded Pedastal OTL and here has command of both groups, but both of his carrier group commanders are USN, although Force Z is mostly British with a RN screen commander.

Before we all get too excited, lets look at Crete. Total losses were 3 cruisers and 6 destroyers sunk, 1 CV, 2 BB, 4 cruisers, 2 destroyers seriously damaged over a week. They were attacked by a force with 280 medium bombers and 150 dive bombers. There were no submarines present but the last time the Uboats were sortied to fight off a fleet was Norway and they accomplished little. They did make some notable kills in the Med, but never many at once. Usually a ship here and a ship there. Its hard to attack a 20 knot warship with a submerged submarine and not every easy even with a surfaced submarine and there are a lot of screening destroyers present.

This time around, the Luftwaffe hasl roughly 120 dive bombers (of 2 types) and a similar number of torpedo bombers. Maximum two sorties a day from the twin engined aircraft, possibly more for the Stukas but not more than 3. The German fighters will keep Allied air power at bay certainly but are not trained or experienced for naval strike.

So a reasonable expectation would seem to me something like Crete in the most likely case as far as air attack goes (and while the RN fired a lot of shells, they only shot down around 20 aircraft), while the UBoats are going to have difficulties.

and most of the Uboats are deployed in the Atlantic (or safe and snug in their pens getting fixed), only the ones immediately available within a 20 day window are being held back to deal with Chariot.

Fitch is a good, even excellent officer with great depth of experience in carrier operations, a very solid choice. Cooke is, at best, a wagon train boss, did a fine job hearding slow transports in open water and was apparently a very good administrator of naval training schools, but he knows zip about carriers, carrier operations, or even the scouting forces (one doesn't need to be an aviator to be a successful TF commander, no matter what the Brown Shoe Mafia contends, but it useful to at least understand how carriers operate a la Spruance).

The RN and USN, at this time are, to paraphrase the old saying "two navies divided by a common language". IOTL this was discovered during the North African landings where, despite almost a full year of active alliance and close to a year of lower level cooperation under combat conditions in the North Atlantic the two fleets discovered, to their horror, that they had no clue what the other was going on about. Fortunately, the naval forces, although under the overall command of a Royal Navy officer, were more or less divided by nation (i.e. USN force & RN force). This was a general policy that continued throughout the war where, outside of a destroyer or three and some minesweepers, the two fleet remained separate at the tactical levels. The sole exception to this was Dragoon, where, for the only time in the war, British, French, and American heavy units operated on combined Task Forces (and even here the separation was mainly broken by the inclusion of significant French naval forces). Even in the Pacific, late in the war, after 3 1/2 years of close cooperation, the British Pacific Fleet operated as a separate Task Force (TF 37) attached to Third Fleet

Mixing fleet units inside a TF is sub-optimal.

As far as the KM threat, based on the OOB you provided, there are 15 U-boats, operating in three pack in the area. The WAllied units are going, especially at Brest, going to be forced to operate in very tight waters, the "better" firing locations are on the edges of the outer bay, within a confined 7 mile wide area with serious shoals on either side.

Also, you mean the carrier forces are 150 miles WEST of the target areas, right? 150 miles east of St. Nazaire puts the Wasp well inland, about 20 miles east of Tours.

All this said, I am still very interested in seeing how this all comes together.

 

[CalBear]

F2A-1 would have been as effective as the Hawk 75 was against the Me-109 over France. Very effective.
The later Buffaloes were slugs compared to the first model.
That's why Grumman lost the initial fighter contract.

By this time in 1941 the USN was operating the F2A-3 in all of its overweight, great place to kill ensigns and Marine 2nd Lt., glory.

 

[CalBear]

yep Pedestal was a blood bath and Pedastal and Crete are roughly this time period in terms of Flak vs Strike aircraft in effectiveness

The USN cruisers and destroyers are reasonably well defended for 1941, not even close to how well they will be defended by late 42 early 43. The USN battleships have only 3 inch guns and machines however and are sorely lacking those 40 mm and 20 mm they will have later. The RN ships have basically the same weaponry as Pedastal and Crete Dive bombers can mission kill a BB in this era, but its torpedo bombers that are the real threat, and 3 inch guns can actually engage those types.

Most of the American battleships are armed with the 5"/25 that replaced the earlier 3" guns during refits in the last 20s-early 30s starting with the Nevada class (only ships that didn't receive the upgrades were the Arkansas, New York, and Texas as they were judged to at the end of their tether since their "sell by" date under the WNT was 1935) The 5"/25 wasn't even close to the gun that was the 5"/38 (i.e. the best heavy AAA gun of the war, afloat or ashore) but reasonably effective against early war attack aircraft (they lacked motorized train/elevation on the BB mounts, although the cruiser mounts on later construction were motorized).

 

[Coulsdon Eagle]

Ships are not the issue. Trained manpower, especially scarce naval specialists, is.

Sometimes we agree. Definitely the case here.

 

[McPherson]

Mixing fleet units inside a TF is sub-optimal.

Especially with those specific British admirals.

The more things change...

File:Battle of Quiberon Bay - 1759 - Tracks map-en.svg

Warfare - Featured Articles - Operation Chariot - the Raid ...

Battle of Madagascar

Brest Map

Chariot 1942- PETIT-DIEULOIS
The St. Nazaire Raid.

Comments...

The environment requires admirals who know what they are doing.

Sir Edward Hawk and Sir Thomas Duckworth knew their business.

The two bravos who rode the USS Buchanan into the St Nazaire drydock were Robert Ryder and Stephen Halden Beattle. Now the book on these two, is that the first one, Ryder, managed to sink his first command, a Q ship, the HMS Edgehill which died when he bungled a U-boat ambush and the U-boat in question killed his ship. Next he commanded the sloop HMS Fleetwood and managed to not sink her. Next he was given a cross channel ferry, the SS Prince Philippe. He promptly sank her in the Firth of Clyde in a collision for which he was at fault. Then came the St Nazaire Raid and a Victoria Cross. One gets the feeling that the RN assigned him to the mission to get rid of him. He came back anyway and was one of the planners of the Dieppe fiasco.

He ended up as member of a specially created constituency (modern pocket borough) serving in Parliament after the war.

Mister Beattle, the other fellow, sat out the war as a prisoner of war after the raid. His later career was capped by a captaincy of HMS Campbeltown after the war, and the HMS Birmingham, senior naval officer present in the Persian Gulf (SNOP) for a brief stint and then he became a naval advisor to Ethiopia, a mostly land locked country with practically no navy.

IOW... a harem-scarem and a pirate. Just the kinds of two derring-do all action and no-brains-at-all RN types who will ram an American destroyer into a dry-dock.

I have already given my opinion of Syfret. The man who mismanaged Ironclad is in charge of this?

 

[McPherson]

Fokker TVIII

Aside from the lousy Wright engines, it was a good torpedo plane. What's wrong with it?

 

[VanOwen]

Aside from the lousy Wright engines, it was a good torpedo plane. What's wrong with it?

Other than a pathetic defensive armorment and a lumbering top speed, its fine.

And before anyone says anything, the Devastator was just as bad.

 

[McPherson]

Other than a pathetic defensive armorment and a lumbering top speed, its fine.

And before anyone says anything, the Devastator was just as bad.

Would one rather fly the Hall PTBH?

 

[merlin]

to be fair, Churchill considered Mers-el-Kebir a strategic success (and tragic necessity)

The only downside was the effect on the French. The US was shocked, but in a good way, it showed Britain's resolve to continue the fight. The German's were also shocked 'They've done what!' They were half expecting 'negotiations!!

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

Did the Germans even have 20 T.VIIIs? Wikipedia lists the number in German service as "several".

 

[VanOwen]

Would one rather fly the Hall PTBH?

Wow, never knew about the Hall. That is one unimpressive airplane. However. Getting back to the Fokker, Wiki says one was shot down by a Do 18. I know warfare is serious business but imaging those two lumbering cows trying to dogfight elicits a chuckle.

 

[galveston bay]

Fitch is a good, even excellent officer with great depth of experience in carrier operations, a very solid choice. Cooke is, at best, a wagon train boss, did a fine job hearding slow transports in open water and was apparently a very good administrator of naval training schools, but he knows zip about carriers, carrier operations, or even the scouting forces (one doesn't need to be an aviator to be a successful TF commander, no matter what the Brown Shoe Mafia contends, but it useful to at least understand how carriers operate a la Spruance).

The RN and USN, at this time are, to paraphrase the old saying "two navies divided by a common language". IOTL this was discovered during the North African landings where, despite almost a full year of active alliance and close to a year of lower level cooperation under combat conditions in the North Atlantic the two fleets discovered, to their horror, that they had no clue what the other was going on about. Fortunately, the naval forces, although under the overall command of a Royal Navy officer, were more or less divided by nation (i.e. USN force & RN force). This was a general policy that continued throughout the war where, outside of a destroyer or three and some minesweepers, the two fleet remained separate at the tactical levels. The sole exception to this was Dragoon, where, for the only time in the war, British, French, and American heavy units operated on combined Task Forces (and even here the separation was mainly broken by the inclusion of significant French naval forces). Even in the Pacific, late in the war, after 3 1/2 years of close cooperation, the British Pacific Fleet operated as a separate Task Force (TF 37) attached to Third Fleet

Mixing fleet units inside a TF is sub-optimal.

As far as the KM threat, based on the OOB you provided, there are 15 U-boats, operating in three pack in the area. The WAllied units are going, especially at Brest, going to be forced to operate in very tight waters, the "better" firing locations are on the edges of the outer bay, within a confined 7 mile wide area with serious shoals on either side.

Also, you mean the carrier forces are 150 miles WEST of the target areas, right? 150 miles east of St. Nazaire puts the Wasp well inland, about 20 miles east of Tours.

All this said, I am still very interested in seeing how this all comes together.

oops, mistyped (west instead of east)

The Americans are short of escorts (as everyone has noticed) but the British have Force H to draw on for this mission and thus units from it with the Wasp and 2 CA attached

Cooke, like Paulus and Percival, are those examples of outstanding (or at least very polished) staff officers who it was decided needed a combat command. Sometimes that works out (Turner was an asshole and a drunk but a hell of an amphibious warfare practitioner although Savo Island makes it clear he was no surface action group commander) while obviously Paulus and Percival did badly (to put it mildly). We are still at the stage for the USN when peacetime lions are being tested and the natural warrior type commanders are still to make their obvious appearance.

Just wait until you see what I have Ghormley doing.....

 

[galveston bay]

Did the Germans even have 20 T.VIIIs? Wikipedia lists the number in German service as "several".

yeah, the Germans used anything remotely useful..... French artillery, tanks and trucks served on the Eastern Front and were still in considerable numbers in Normandy in 1944
plus a lot of repurposed Danish and Dutch ships ended up as flak ships and then there were the Italian ships they obtained late war

 

[galveston bay]

Especially with those specific British admirals.

The more things change...

File:Battle of Quiberon Bay - 1759 - Tracks map-en.svg

Warfare - Featured Articles - Operation Chariot - the Raid ...

Battle of Madagascar

Brest Map

Chariot 1942- PETIT-DIEULOIS
The St. Nazaire Raid.

Comments...

The environment requires admirals who know what they are doing.

Sir Edward Hawk and Sir Thomas Duckworth knew their business.

The two bravos who rode the USS Buchanan into the St Nazaire drydock were Robert Ryder and Stephen Halden Beattle. Now the book on these two, is that the first one, Ryder, managed to sink his first command, a Q ship, the HMS Edgehill which died when he bungled a U-boat ambush and the U-boat in question killed his ship. Next he commanded the sloop HMS Fleetwood and managed to not sink her. Next he was given a cross channel ferry, the SS Prince Philippe. He promptly sank her in the Firth of Clyde in a collision for which he was at fault. Then came the St Nazaire Raid and a Victoria Cross. One gets the feeling that the RN assigned him to the mission to get rid of him. He came back anyway and was one of the planners of the Dieppe fiasco.

He ended up as member of a specially created constituency (modern pocket borough) serving in Parliament after the war.

Mister Beattle, the other fellow, sat out the war as a prisoner of war after the raid. His later career was capped by a captaincy of HMS Campbeltown after the war, and the HMS Birmingham, senior naval officer present in the Persian Gulf (SNOP) for a brief stint and then he became a naval advisor to Ethiopia, a mostly land locked country with practically no navy.

IOW... a harem-scarem and a pirate. Just the kinds of two derring-do all action and no-brains-at-all RN types who will ram an American destroyer into a dry-dock.

I have already given my opinion of Syfret. The man who mismanaged Ironclad is in charge of this?

thanks for posting the maps... I have good maps, but not from an electronic source and have been looking for some to use for this to demonstrate what is going on

Working up and writing up the action, still got at least another day to go for that write up

 

[galveston bay]

Most of the American battleships are armed with the 5"/25 that replaced the earlier 3" guns during refits in the last 20s-early 30s starting with the Nevada class (only ships that didn't receive the upgrades were the Arkansas, New York, and Texas as they were judged to at the end of their tether since their "sell by" date under the WNT was 1935) The 5"/25 wasn't even close to the gun that was the 5"/38 (i.e. the best heavy AAA gun of the war, afloat or ashore) but reasonably effective against early war attack aircraft (they lacked motorized train/elevation on the BB mounts, although the cruiser mounts on later construction were motorized).

corrected while I was gaming it out

I will be going back and making needed edits after I complete the write up (another day or two)

Saw a wonderful youtube video talking about the best AA guns a few weeks ago and yeah, the 5/38 is awesome especially with proximity rounds

To bad I have no idea how to reasonably rush the 3 inch/22

 

[galveston bay]

Could we possibly save Malaysia? it could serve as a lookout post throughout asia.

I have outlined what is happening the Pacific in the immediate 6 months leading to Dec 8 but write up will be after I finish Chariot, a special chapter on the US Coast Guard (because I found a wonderful source today), and some other stuff happening in the Atlantic and Europe until the end of 1941

 

[Cockroach]

... 20 Fokker TVIII torpedo bombers (floatplanes)...

Total production of the Fokker TVIII was only 36ish (per Wikipedia). Between pre-capture losses (at least 1, per wiki), escapees (about 9 in 1940, plus 1 hijacked and flown to the UK in May 1941, per wiki) and general attrition I'd actually be suprized if the Germans could maintain 20 fully operational a year later. Maybe substitute with He-115s which fill more or less the same role and the Germans certainly had in considerable numbers?