Red Spies in the White House: An Alternate Cold War

[Aluma]

However, no matter how crazy things will get in the US, imo they will always remain far ahead of the USSR economically and technologically

I highly doubt it, not if they remain isolated after going full far right

America's economy is strong, the strongest even, but thats because it has the whole world as its market

It simply wont surpass the USSR(which was already the Top 2 IOTL despite all its inefficiences and crap done to it by the now butterflied away OTL rulers) if it becomes a giant North Korea, no matter how fertile the soil is or how educated the now nazified population are

Going full militaristic wont also make them more powerful in the world stage, not really when your enemy can nuke you at any time they want and if you get yours MAD becomes the rule

Fact is that while not militaristic IOTL the US already had the most powerful army in the world and that wasnt what won it the Cold War, the existence of MAD made the use of such army directly against the USSR and in this case being even more militaristic would only mean wasting more money with an already massive and strenous military power that they simply cant use - not without getting nuked

Rather militarism would make the already damaged american economy weaker due to the strain of funding a large army imposes on all sectors, having all citizens conscribed alone would create problems and any technological advancement that the US would otherwise have would instead be focused on improving said military

Dont expect any of the great inovations from the capitalist society of the OTL US in this Fascist one, and unless the soviets challenge them to yet another space dick measuring contest(which would be yet another pointless strain as the OTL USSR already got to Space first and in this scenario it'd be perfectly capable of reaching the Moon) there wont be any of the fun toys we got from NASA thanks to the discoveries made by their engineers

 

[Aluma]

Also I dont think a Civil War is all that unlikely
I dont think it will happen, but considering TTL US's polarization makes ours look like a friendly disagreement, with the last chapter stressing that this fight is between "the jews and their enemies", I think it blowing up into a whole conflict is very much not impossible

 

[Trixy]

We shouldn't just assume the USSR is going to have a better time ITTL. Their OTL leaders being butterflied away can just as well mean they end up with worse leaders, or mediocre ones.

 

[Aluma]

We shouldn't just assume the USSR is going to have a better time ITTL. Their OTL leaders being butterflied away can just as well mean they end up with worse leaders, or mediocre ones.

Fair point
For all we know they could end up going the Twilight of the Red Tsar route
I was just going with them doing better because I find that more interesting and their OTL leaders already set the bar very low

 

[Mitridates the Great]

Let's not forget, either, that the only reason the United States had "world-class universities and institutions" was simply because they were the only ones left standing after Eurasia tore itself apart in World War II.

Without forgetting that the advantages of the United States are based on the fact that everyone will want to trade with them and, what is more important, EMMIGRATE to the United States.

It is extremely doubtful that a United States that is strongly implied to be the Fourth Reich hoisting the Stars and Stripes instead of the Hakenkreuz will have the same immigration pull as in OTL.

The United States built its prosperity by soaking up talent from the rest of the world like a sponge.

This anti-Semitic, fascist, Europhobic and rabidly anti-Asian edition of USA?

They'll be very lucky if they don't start experiencing massive IMMIGRATION from people who just don't want to be killed because some moronic bureaucrat thought they were too pro-White.

 

[boredviewer1234]

Admittingly while the USA likely is going to become something vile, I don't mean to take it's agency I suspect as it's going to become a weird mix both home grown fascist it also is likely going to become some cabal far right internationals determined to challenge the world order.

We already know Britain as time goes own it's own extremist's are being subsumed into the US's A using white nationalists than standard British one.

Anglo- I mean white countries, descendants of the Nordic, and Celtic and Roman and Germanic peoples

Their is one state I think will be both very willing to align with the USA and serve as demonstration it's new found perspective, Portugal.

It's already got a fascist government more willing to bankrupt itself and spend decades at war than ever give up it's colonies no matter how absurd it is, willing to try and wage with India than give up a single inch of colonial land.

Once the US show's itself amendable to it's way of thinking as well as worries about internal communism I suspect you will see it become a massive stronghold for the US.

Which given Portugal's colonies extend from China, India, parts of Africa ect they serve as both areas to try and destabilize their enemies from but also guaranteeing it will make it enemies from France to India.

 

[ric350]

There is no reason to assume the Soviet economy develops any way close to OTL. Before 1946, Stalin had grand plans of massive economic cooperation with US. And the Soviets apparently control IMF.

I don't believe that TTL Soviets will be cursed with the same determinism of OTL Soviet Union.

Recreating the conditions for the OTL rot of the social/economic policies that were made under the thaw of Khrushchev and stagnation of the Brezhnev regimes will be ridiculously hard and downright impossible with the butterflies we have currently flapping now.

We already went through a massive discussion on the likelihood of the Chernobyl Disaster somehow being able to happen again despite the butterflies so I don't believe we should revisit the topic of determinism again.

Yeah maybe, but under Stalin (and somewhat under Lenin as well), “bad news“ was not received well the further up the chain you went. That type of restrictive feedback tends to hide all sorts of sins. There was also the fear of being labeled a counter-revolutionary, which would quickly lead to a trip to the Gulag, or a bullet. The early reports to Stalin about the onset of the Ukrainian famine is an example of this. This “paranoia to deliver” mindset led to the economic house of cards that Khrushchev, Brezhnev, et al ultimately presided over.

ric350

 

[Mitridates the Great]

Admittingly while the USA likely is going to become something vile, I don't mean to take it's agency I suspect as it's going to become a weird mix both home grown fascist it also is likely going to become some cabal far right internationals determined to challenge the world order.

We already know Britain as time goes own it's own extremist's are being subsumed into the US's A using white nationalists than standard British one.



Their is one state I think will be both very willing to align with the USA and serve as demonstration it's new found perspective, Portugal.

It's already got a fascist government more willing to bankrupt itself and spend decades at war than ever give up it's colonies no matter how absurd it is, willing to try and wage with India than give up a single inch of colonial land.

Once the US show's itself amendable to it's way of thinking as well as worries about internal communism I suspect you will see it become a massive stronghold for the US.

Which given Portugal's colonies extend from China, India, parts of Africa ect they serve as both areas to try and destabilize their enemies from but also guaranteeing it will make it enemies from France to India.

Objection. Standard American white supremacism considers the inhabitants of the Iberian peninsula (namely Spain and Portugal) to be NOT white.

The fact that Portugal enacts things like Lusotropicalism, or that Salazar refuses to follow a policy of "I'll admit anyone as long as they're white" (he preferred them Catholics) will be read as actually advocating mixing with the indigenous people. Something that, again, American white supremacism considers communism.

So the Fascist United States will not see in Portugal a great ally, but rather "a gang of cowardly mongrels who have more land than they deserve and who it is good to beat the shit out of to give us what rightfully belongs to us, USA". (Sic as the FSA will think about this).

The UK will decide that this is an excellent time to forget that they are supposed to be in league with Portugal and will tell Salazar to obey Washington or face the consequences. (At this time, is sure the psychological impulse to "give in to any American demand no matter how ridiculous and unreasonable" is deeply ingrained in the psyche of the British political class.)

So the United States basically hijacks the Portuguese Colonial Empire and starts the local version of Generalplanost "because economy" and this is praised by all non-USSR or non-white nations.

 

[nkd1325]

I honestly think people here thinking the US is going to go full Hitler style Nazism, start genociding its own population, and go full autarky after the Soviet coup is revealed are out of their minds. At the absolute most I see things escalating to Franco style fascism which was still happy to trade with anyone willing to take them (aka the people who hadn't sanctioned them). More realistically, I see things culminating in 12-16 years of RABIDLY anti-communist supermajorities in the legislature and presidency with a foreign policy in the Americas that amounts to "align with us or get coup'd and invaded if the coup doesn't work" (you know, OTL but MORE aggressive) and pulling into their orbit any other countries who see the soviets as a threat. Even if you gave McCarthy himself total power in the US (fringe lunatics are not taking power over established anti-soviet politicians barring an ASB civil war) things would not go to the extremes some people are positing.

@Rufus is also right in that the inherent geographic, demographic, and economic advantages the US has over the Soviets aren't going to disappear. WWII utterly wrecked the economies and demographics of everyone else in the world (barring Britain to a degree) and it took American money from the Marshall Plan to get the European economies back on their feet. The Soviets don't have the resources to do similar since they have 25 million dead and have to rebuild Russia. Hell even IF the US goes full isolationist autarky (which I still find outright ASB with all the economic interests it has at least in the Americas) its the one nation in the world where it could WORK. The only thing missing from the strategic resource pool for the 1940's is large quantities of Rubber and all that would take is changing the Banana Republics into Rubber Republics.

tl;dr: Some people are jumping to the absolute worst case scenario, or even ASB scenarios, and assuming they're the ONLY scenario that can come from this. The reveal of the Soviet coup is not going to cause the public to just hand power to "Hitler but American" or erase all the interests the US has in Central and South America. The main pivot of this timeline is the backlash that will result from a literal Soviet agent in the Whitehouse giving Stalin everything he ever wanted out of WWII, not making this story a Soviet wank/America screw.

 

[Dan]

I honestly think people here thinking the US is going to go full Hitler style Nazism, start genociding its own population, and go full autarky after the Soviet coup is revealed are out of their minds.

I don't think anyone thinking this is totally out of their minds. You have a country where in some southern states, they were happy to send the national guard to shoot people for daring to say that black people should be allowed to not be lynched. Now add that to a propaganda campaign that is painting Jews as communists and aligning the civil rights movement with Jews and Communism in those states and you're already part the way there. For the hardcore racists, they don't need facts to start murdering, they just need an excuse. And some of those people are in positions of political, military or civil power.

Now that might not officially take hold in the northern states, but at the very least you'll find more kids being stopped and questioned for being black on a Friday night, and "shot while resisting arrest". We're not that many years away from the Mulford Act OTL. Now imagine that country wide?
So yes, it's a bit extreme, but not "out of their minds" extreme.

More realistically, I see things culminating in 12-16 years of RABIDLY anti-communist supermajorities in the legislature and presidency with a foreign policy in the Americas that amounts to "align with us or get coup'd and invaded if the coup doesn't work" (you know, OTL but MORE aggressive)

I think this would be my call too.

 

[Aluma]

I think while a literal American Hitler may be a exaggeration a lot of these arguments seem to be based on the typical premise of "it cant happen here" which this TL is explicity challenging

The idea that McCarthy is the worse the US has to offer and that "oh they'll just vote republican for a decade or so" is very much out of reality here, we already saw a glimpse of the future and it features american youtube stars talking about how they were tricked into siding with their aryan brothers by a jew

The idea that a Uber-Racist US will also happily trade with countries it considers racially inferior and "mongrel" in reflection of a catholic reactionary regime in Iberia is also pretty funny, like oh yeah they'll turn evil and still keep all the pragmatism

No, what I see happening is the US pursuing autarkic policies while at same time still trading with aligned nations which are advantageous to itself, not become completely stupid and isolationist on the basis of race mind you but take more or less the same stance the Axis Powers took IOTL regarding their foreign economic policy

 

[Seandineen]

Could we see support for a Bantustan-style policy? Not mere segregation but a collaborations leadership.

 

[Mitridates the Great]

I think while a literal American Hitler may be a exaggeration a lot of these arguments seem to be based on the typical premise of "it cant happen here" which this TL is explicity challenging

The idea that McCarthy is the worse the US has to offer and that "oh they'll just vote republican for a decade or so" is very much out of reality here, we already saw a glimpse of the future and it features american youtube stars talking about how they were tricked into siding with their aryan brothers by a jew

The idea that a Uber-Racist US will also happily trade with countries it considers racially inferior and "mongrel" in reflection of a catholic reactionary regime in Iberia is also pretty funny, like oh yeah they'll turn evil and still keep all the pragmatism

No, what I see happening is the US pursuing autarkic policies while at same time still trading with aligned nations which are advantageous to itself, not become completely stupid and isolationist on the basis of race mind you but take more or less the same stance the Axis Powers took IOTL regarding their foreign economic policy

Furthermore this type of America is highly likely to view things like globalization and attempts to interlock economies as attempts by "the Judeo-Bolshevik cabal" to weaken America by attacking them through their economy and the domino effect (read, destroy a country's economy only to destroy that of the entire continent through a chain reaction).

Consequently, politics will dominate economics, instead of the other way around as in OTL. (The latter, economics dominating politics, would be required for this "America goes full fascist but still decides to continue using economics as the basis and driver of all their decisions" scenario to work.) And anyone who tries to insist that "but the economy" will certainly be investigated as suspected of being part of the Judeo-Bolshevik cabal

Without forgetting, as the other person ignored, that "the advantages of the United States" include a massive and constant immigration of people from Eurasia to the United States. Assume that population movement patterns will continue and people will continue to attempt to cross into a United States where it is highly likely that those people will be arrested, tortured, and killed (not necessarily in that order) for "reasons" such as "not being enough white", "not speaking English correctly", "coming from a country where the Jew rules" is ridiculous.

Actually, many people in the United States are more likely to decide that any other country is much more welcoming because at least they won't try to assassinate them on the grounds that "you hate this country."

 

[22000 Kevin]

Well we have to remember that the US will have deeply fallen into the depths of mainstream conspiracy theories and complete and utter lies of propaganda by the 21st century with history being literally rewritten...

Here are some of the things we have gathered from the ATL version of a YouTube Web series from the future that gives us a hint of how this warped version of America has developed.

1. The Holocaust is considered to be nothing more than Jewish-Bolshevik propaganda.
2. Generations of Americans have been educated into believing that their nation was tricked into fighting the Axis powers in WW2.
3. They also believe that the Axis powers were framed by the Pearl Harbor attacks to get America into the war.

None Dare Call It Treason​

Narrator: AWESOME BOP BATTLES OF HISTORY! BENEDICT ARNOLD! VERSUS! HARRY DEXTER WHITE! BEGIN!

Benedict Arnold: I’M THE SAVIOR OF SARATOGA, THE HERO OF TICONDEROGA! THE GREATEST GENERAL IN THE CONTINENTAL ARMY, ANYONE COULD HAVE TOLD YA! THE CONTINENTAL CONGRESS DENIED ME WHAT I DESERVED, SO I, FILLED WITH PRIDE, DECIDED TO GO FIGHT FOR THE OTHER SIDE! MY NAME IS SYNYMOUS WITH TREASON, I’M A MODERN DAY BRUTUS- THAT’S TRUE- BUT EVEN I’M NOT AS TREASONOUS AND WICKED AS YOU! I BETRAYED MY COMRADES, YOU BETRAYED CIVILIZATION, YOU DEGRADED JEW! YOU’RE AS VILE A LIAR AS THE DEVIL HIMSELF! INVENTING THE HOLOCAUST FABLE, TRICKING THE ARYANS TO TURN AGAINST THEMSELVES! MY BOYS DUMPED TEA INTO BOSTON HARBOR, YOU KILLED MILLIONS BY FRAMING THE AXIS OVER PEARL HARBOR! YOU GAVE THE ATOMIC BOMB TO UNCLE JOE, YOU WERE SUCKING HIS DICK, YOU RED HOE! I BETRAYED MY COUNTRY FOR THE WOMAN I DID MARRY- BUT YOU BETRAYED GOD HIMSELF, JUDAS, SO GO TO HELL, HARRY!

The Late Night

… It doesn't take a genius to figure out that something went horribly wrong in the 1950s …

 

[Catalunya]

AH.com user try not to turn every decent scenario into an ordinary fascist TL challenge (VERY HARD)

 

[nkd1325]

I think while a literal American Hitler may be a exaggeration a lot of these arguments seem to be based on the typical premise of "it cant happen here" which this TL is explicity challenging

Except every place that it did "happen" as you put it were either:
A. Countries that were ripped apart in a war the general public thought was at least at a stalemate, followed by 20 years of generally poor governance combined with shattered economies (Germany, Hungary, Bulgaria)
B. Went through a massive civil war where the anti communist faction got taken over by a Fascist (Spain)
C. Had irredentism issues on par or worse than 1871-1914 France's Revanche, has been politically unstable since its inception, and had the literal founder of Fascism. (Italy)
D. The Soviets fucked them and enraged vast swaths of the public (Finland, Romania)
E. Had gone through decades of indoctrination about their superiority to their lesser neighbors, expansionism, and colonial rule combining with a suicidal devotion to "honor" (Japan)

The closest the US in this scenario comes to in regards to "Axis Powers Backstory" is Finland or Romania who got utterly fucked by the Soviets.

… It doesn't take a genius to figure out that something went horribly wrong in the 1950s …

I had forgotten about this random look into the future so I guess we're going down the Antonescu route rather than the Mannerheim route. Still all this shows is that Harry will be exposed as a Soviet agent and that Anti-Semitism, and as a result Holocaust denialism, will explode as a result (side note: ERBoH is not the best look at the general cultural zeitgeist since they sling the harshest insults possible around. Those insults could easily be a 30% share rather than a 100% share of mainstream cultural opinion). Things we already knew would happen based on the in story narrative. They could easily see Soviet aligned countries as "run by the jews" while also turning South and Central America into a "bastion of freedom against the corrupt Soviets and their lapdogs". MAD doesn't become a factor until the 60's so there's still 15 years of the US being militarily unopposable in anything except a land war in Europe. CA, SA, and the Carribean are going to be the US's playground. The reveal of Soviet subversion is going to make the US at this point more interventionist not less as "NEVER AGAIN!" becomes a common opinion.

As for things like Bantustans and mass murder of migrants, again I'm going to call ASB unless there is a well detailed throughline of this building up. The south's political party is still the democrats at this time and guess who put a Soviet (and with the retrospect of this scenario a Soviet enabler in FDR) in the White House? Even if the Dixiecrats split from the New Deal Democrats they're still going to get hit with the "you let this happen" label so for at least a decade if not more, Dixiecrat policies are not going to be on the Federal government's agenda. They'll probably escalate on a local level, but the federal focus will be on communists and, as a result of White, the Jews. As for the migrants OTL a vast number of European ones by this point were those fleeing the Soviets. It'd be easy to spin it as "These brave German, Hungarian, Polish, Italian, etc. freedom fighters had their friends and families slaughtered by the Judeo-Bolshevik slavers! it is our duty to protect them from the vile snakes that rule their homeland until the day of liberation comes!" or something along those lines. Especially the still massive Italian-American community, as well as the Germans if "White Nationalism", or more likely, Anti-Jewish/Soviet Nationalism becomes a major thing.

 

[Teiresias]

E. Had gone through decades of indoctrination about their superiority to their lesser neighbors, expansionism, and colonial rule combining with a suicidal devotion to "honor" (Japan)

Take away the last bit about honour (or replace it with freedom), and you’ve got the US.

 

[nkd1325]

Take away the last bit about honour (or replace it with freedom), and you’ve got the US.

........ You have honestly destroyed all your credibility if you're seriously comparing 1930-1945 Japan to the US of the same era. The US didn't rape cities into submission like Japan did at Nanking or institutionally dedicate itself to suicide charges and crashes. The US in general did think of itself as better that it really was, but it objectively WAS better to its people than any other notable power of the era. The US had also not expanded its borders since the Spanish American war, nearly 50 years ago by the time this TL starts while Japan was fighting wars of conquest and stamping down on their colonies, or prepping to do more of such, near nonstop since 1930.

 

[arrestedcorn]

Ironic that they rejected Wallace for his pro-Soviet sympathies, but ended up having another pro-Soviet as president, arguably even more pro-Soviet in sympathies (but that's just my opinion though. Who's more pro-Soviet, Wallace or White?). Also what will the USSR do about Turkey and the Straits? I know Stalin wanted the Straits under his control. Would that happen ITL? I think it could, but could someone with more knowledge than me say if this would happen?

 

[Dan]

E. Had gone through decades of indoctrination about their superiority to their lesser neighbors, expansionism, and colonial rule combining with a suicidal devotion to "honor" (Japan)

Interesting thought regarding this: The potential for the decades of indoctrination about superiority etc etc, starting with this timeline, would see this manifest sometime around the 70's and 80's. Around the time of OTL Vietnam and Greneda.

So accept that America is going to go further to the right than OTL, in this case, anti-communism/anti-socialism will become a greater article of faith than it currently is. Now add in that the civil rights movement has become associated with Communism/Socialism. You have a ready breeding ground for propaganda regarding their, (as in WASP America), superiority to not only their neighbours, but also a significant chunk of their own population. Add to this "Manifest Destiny" as an excuse for expansionism, (American sector of Germany, occupation zones in Japan, Canal zone as a start), without Trueman to ratify the Philippines independence in July 1946, there's a good chance that they're still under American colonial rule. Not hard to point that towards a suicidal devotion to the flag.

This won't be instant, it WILL take decades to take root, but the soil is very, very fertile right about now ITTL.