Red Spies in the White House: An Alternate Cold War

[Mitridates the Great]

Also what TTL Germany will remember is that a Jew (White) tried to starve them simply because he hated them for not being Jewish. And the Americans were the enforcement arm for him, while the Soviets helped.

The image of the American soldier in Germany is surely that of a fat guy dressed as a cowboy and eating with full cheeks while he shoots hungry Germans between guffaws.

When the Americans to suddenly start yelling that all of this was really White's fault, and ultimately the Soviets, will seem to Germans like nothing more than a desperate attempt to cover up his own shit by blaming someone else.

Sure, it sounds very stupid (?), but no more so than white nationalist beliefs that all east of the Elbe are Jews and their puppets, which Dahl will be preaching at the same time.

 

[LelouchOfTheBarBrawl]

...The Nazis quite literally believed that the USSR was dominated by Jews.

 

[TimTurner]

Also what TTL Germany will remember is that a Jew (White) tried to starve them simply because he hated them for not being Jewish. And the Americans were the enforcement arm for him, while the Soviets helped.

The image of the American soldier in Germany is surely that of a fat guy dressed as a cowboy and eating with full cheeks while he shoots hungry Germans between guffaws.

When the Americans to suddenly start yelling that all of this was really White's fault, and ultimately the Soviets, will seem to Germans like nothing more than a desperate attempt to cover up his own shit by blaming someone else.

Sure, it sounds very stupid (?), but no more so than white nationalist beliefs that all east of the Elbe are Jews and their puppets, which Dahl will be preaching at the same time.

Jesus Christ, Nazis will have a field day, won't they...

 

[Mitridates the Great]

Jesus Christ, Nazis will have a field day, won't they...

Yes but I doubt very much tha German Nazis will forgot so quickly that America (under White) tried to genocide them (and that's how Morgenthau Plan will like for Germans).

Yeah, America can scream "This was White's fault!" but why people will accept this so quickly? "Because economics"? Lol nope, FSA obviously won't give any cent for another thing than "guns for shooting communists".

 

[TimTurner]

Yes but I doubt very much tha German Nazis will forgot so quickly that America (under White) tried to genocide them (and that's how Morgenthau Plan will like for Germans).

Yeah, America can scream "This was White's fault!" but why people will accept this so quickly? "Because economics"? Lol nope, FSA obviously won't give any cent for another thing than "guns for shooting communists".

I think that a majority of German Nazis will probably prefer the Soviets to the Americans here, simply because the Americans did the Morgenthau Plan and the Jewish factor has been nullified.
Germany in general should be Soviet-favoring, overall. At least in terms of public opinion.

 

[Gar48]

I think that a majority of German Nazis will probably prefer the Soviets to the Americans here, simply because the Americans did the Morgenthau Plan and the Jewish factor has been nullified.
Germany in general should be Soviet-favoring, overall. At least in terms of public opinion.

"The Soviets bombed our cities and killed our soldiers during the war. The Americans humiliated and starved us during peace" is probably going to be a very comon pro-Soviet sentiment in West Germany ITTL

 

[TimTurner]

"The Soviets bombed our cities and killed our soldiers during the war. The Americans humiliated and starved us during peace" is probably going to be a very comon pro-Soviet sentiment in West Germany ITTL

in particular, the deindustrialization of Germany would be extremely unpopular ITTL. Even more than everything else combined.
The youngest generation in particular should loathe what America had done, they'd be suffering more than anyone else because of it and would learn from their grandparents what Germany had achieved. When they get their voice in politics, it won't be pretty.

 

[Mitridates the Great]

"The Soviets bombed our cities and killed our soldiers during the war. The Americans humiliated and starved us during peace" is probably going to be a very comon pro-Soviet sentiment in West Germany ITTL

in particular, the deindustrialization of Germany would be extremely unpopular ITTL. Even more than everything else combined.
The youngest generation in particular should loathe what America had done, they'd be suffering more than anyone else because of it and would learn from their grandparents what Germany had achieved. When they get their voice in politics, it won't be pretty.

Essentially this.

Sure, there might be people who remember that "the Nazis claimed that the USSR was run by Jews." But it is extremely unlikely that the logical leap will be made from there to "we should side with the Americans who tried to starve us, against the Soviets who helped us rebuild the remains of our country, simply because the Americans have now been suddenly happened to start shouting that their acts against us were actually the fault of the Jews."

To posit that this should endorse a German-American alliance would certainly be seen as "Let's just take the word for people who have every reason to lie to us to evade their responsibilities and none to be honest with us, what can go wrong? "

 

[Vabasion]

I don’t see them siding with Soviets against Americans considering how America is poised to turn out. Americans shouting you were right all along we were ran by Jews and being antisemitic could turn Germany to them over Soviets

 

[Aluma]

I don’t see them siding with Soviets against Americans considering how America is poised to turn out. Americans shouting you were right all along we were ran by Jews and being antisemitic could turn Germany to them over Soviets

Doubtful
It will be "you were right all along and we starved you and your children anyway, sorry! It was the jew in control we swear!" versus "you were wrong to think us soviets were bad, but you were right about everything you said about the West and we'll support you even after you tried to exterminate us"

 

[Mitridates the Great]

Doubtful
It will be "you were right all along and we starved you and your children anyway, sorry! It was the jew in control we swear!" versus "you were wrong to think us soviets were bad, but you were right about everything you said about the West and we'll support you even after you tried to exterminate us"

Esentially this requires that this TL works in the mechanic "USA is the reasonable partner" meaning this "USA is perceived as 100% honest and reasonable no matter what they are saying".

 

[Vabasion]

Doubtful
It will be "you were right all along and we starved you and your children anyway, sorry! It was the jew in control we swear!" versus "you were wrong to think us soviets were bad, but you were right about everything you said about the West and we'll support you even after you tried to exterminate us"

There’s a big gap between sorry for starving you we pals now and holy shit you were right how about a pogrom in apology and public talk show antisemitism that previous chapters imply happened. These are still people who were Nazis and didn’t go trough decades of denazification. Even up until our own 60s and 70s Nazis had a lot of sympathies in the gen pop. I don’t see them choosing communism

 

[Blyatnik]

I don't see the West Germans going over to the Eastern Bloc so quickly because Germany and Russia simply do not like each other and are still not on good geopolitical terms. Especially with East Germany being much more powerful and stable than West Germany, sympathizers and survivors might look to cross but I doubt that a large enough majority of West Germans will just turn over to the WarPac (or it's equivalent Soviet-led organizaiton).

 

[Aluma]

These are still people who were Nazis and didn’t go trough decades of denazification. Even up until our own 60s and 70s Nazis had a lot of sympathies in the gen pop. I don’t see them choosing communism

Thats IOTL, ITTL I completely see them choosing Communism regardless of how much wehraboo America becomes later, for them the "decadent west" is worst than the soviets since unlike the americans the soviets didnt go out of their way to exterminate them

The "we fought the wrong side" will be popular not only in America(refering to Nazi Germany) but also in Germany(in reference to the soviets) as any propaganda about "judeo-bolshevism" would be shattered by the fact the soviets not only spared and rebuilt their country(unlike the nazi fear of the "asian hordes coming to destroy us") but also hate the "western jewry" just as much(just take a look at Stalin's own antisemitic policies)

That combined with the fact that the same nazis who wanted to exterminate the slavs also thought *some* slavic children were certainly aryan, because they were so frivolous as to think "white skin, blonde hair and blue/green eyes" equaled them being secretely nordic, and the fact those same nazis would see these same "aryan-looking" slavs acting "civilised" and "how a proper aryan should"(aka being socially conservative) unlike "those mongrel yanks" who had just now desegregated and embraced civil rights(even though the American Reich will fully go back on these policies later), something the USSR's own propaganda will surely not miss the chance of taking advantage of

So yeah, sorry I dont see how a Pro-America Germany will be possible in this scenario

If anything the whole Germany will look like it's East counterpart in Pax Atomica

 

[Vabasion]

Thats IOTL, ITTL I completely see them choosing Communism regardless of how much wehraboo America becomes later, for them the "decadent west" is worst than the soviets since unlike the americans the soviets didnt go out of their way to exterminate them

The "we fought the wrong side" will be popular not only in America(refering to Nazi Germany) but also in Germany(in reference to the soviets) as any propaganda about "judeo-bolshevism" would be shattered by the fact the soviets not only spared and rebuilt their country(unlike the nazi fear of the "asian hordes coming to destroy us") but also hate the "western jewry" just as much(just take a look at Stalin's own antisemitic policies)

That combined with the fact that the same nazis who wanted to exterminate the slavs also thought *some* slavic children were certainly aryan, because they were so frivolous as to think "white skin, blonde hair and blue/green eyes" equaled them being secretely nordic, and the fact those same nazis would see these same "aryan-looking" slavs acting "civilised" and "how a proper aryan should"(aka being socially conservative) unlike "those mongrel yanks" who had just now desegregated and embraced civil rights(even though the American Reich will fully go back on these policies later), something the USSR's own propaganda will surely not miss the chance of taking advantage of

So yeah, sorry I dont see how a Pro-America Germany will be possible in this scenario

If anything the whole Germany will look like it's East counterpart in Pax Atomica

Didn’t Soviets rape millions of women and exterminate Germans from Eastern Europe?

 

[Aluma]

Didn’t Soviets rape millions of women and exterminate Germans from Eastern Europe?

All OTL, but yes they did the former(which they would try to hide and say the allies did the same and in worse quantities, which considering the Morgenthau Plan here would likely be believed) and ethnically cleansed the later(persecutions, forced population transfer, polgroms, gulags, all that stuff) rather full extermination ala the Holocaust, though no idea how that would have underwent in this scenario since idk wheter they would have prefered trying to settle their assimilated germans in the deindustrialized german territory as collaborators or would have simply done the same in hopes of preventing the population of Germany from learning of what was happening to their eastern counterpart, all up to the author

 

[Catalunya]

The Germans don’t have to pick a side y’know. They can also just go ‘screw both of them’, and try go it independently, though they will undoubtedly have a lot of Soviet, British (and perhaps also American) troops on their land, and most likely have their nation divided into at least a state or two.

 

[Mitridates the Great]

Except that, when one country saying "fuck them both" usually in all TLs ends up with the country in question being destroyed by both sides (who call a truce only to ally to crush the dissident) and forced into align with one.

I don't know if it's because people are so repulsed by the idea of someone just saying "I'm not going to participate in this shit" or what.

And in this case I suspect that even if Germany makes it clear that it hates Jews and communism, the fact that they don't immediately align with America will be seen in DC as "proof" that they side with "The Jews." and therefore deserve to be destroyed.

 

[Emperor Norton I]

Except that, when one country saying "fuck them both" usually in all TLs ends up with the country in question being destroyed by both sides (who call a truce only to ally to crush the dissident) and forced into align with one.

I don't know if it's because people are so repulsed by the idea of someone just saying "I'm not going to participate in this shit" or what.

And in this case I suspect that even if Germany makes it clear that it hates Jews and communism, the fact that they don't immediately align with America will be seen in DC as "proof" that they side with "The Jews." and therefore deserve to be destroyed.

Human nature is to have thesis and antithesis (and argue which one is which). Human nature is to pick a side. The natural flow of things is that they do eventually end up on one side or the other by getting caught in the gravity of a larger object. And the human condition is such that you have to eventually make a decision. The in between can only last so long.

If nothing else, as you stated, if you didn't then the stronger force will make that decision for you. To have protection against that, you align with the other force, which is therefore a decision. If you're very lucky, you're positioned to not have to do that by a perfect balance of power that you're in the blindspot or eye of the hurricane of, but that is rare. Most of the time it is making the choice but trying to limit it, and allowing the ability to change your mind with minimal self destruction in doing so.

 

[Cudymcar]

Didn’t Soviets rape millions of women and exterminate Germans from Eastern Europe?

They didn't.