Question: Republicans and Democrats, what happened?

So I was reading a book about the American Civil War and the party mechanics at work.

Back than the Republicans where on the progressive side and the Democrats where conserative. <-- Certainly a plain summary.

But how and when did this change? When did the roles reversed?

If I look at the Republican party today, would Lincoln not rotate in his grave?
 
The very short answer is that the political issues and party coalitions were different back then. I'll defer to others more familiar with the politics and society of that era to provide more detailed answers.
 
The Republican Party started to shift to the right sometime before, during and after WW2, when the Democrats under FDR and Truman slowly became more and more the progressive liberal party as a result of FDR's New Deal and various other policies enacted during this time period, the final shift came later under Nixon and Reagan; who's largely conservative political views and pandering to the right firmly entrenched the Republicans as the party of the right.
 
during the gilded age (1860s-1900s) both the parties were essentially centre-right, and supported classical liberalism, the only major difference being the republicans were more supportive of tariffs

1896 was the big realigning election, with Bryan running on a more populist, anti-big business platform, and McKinley running as the pro-big business candidate

of course there have been exceptions, TR was very progressive, and John Davis (1924 dem candidate) very conservative, but by and large since 1896 the two parties have been vaguely centre-right and centre-left

its only really since the 1980s and 1990s that the parties have been heavily partisan and ideologically different, before then they were both pretty big tent.
 
I tought Republicans were more of a big tent party with more progressive stances didn't meant that it was void of conservatist ones in the same time; while Democrats were more homogenic?
 
Well, modern ideologies were just starting to form before the Civil War, so I wouldn't necessarily call the Republicans of Lincoln's day progressive. They were forward-thinking when it came to slavery, but their economic platform was essentially the same as the Whigs. Democrats weren't necessarily conservative, either, just very pro-Jefferson/Jackson in their philosophy. After the Civil War, ideology became more important.

By the turn of the 20th century, the two parties had progressive/liberal, moderate, and conservative wings. Who you were and where you came from made more of a difference than stances on issues when it came to party affiliation. Democrats tended to attract ethnic immigrant communities, as Republicans like the Whigs before them had a bit of a nativist streak. Republicans were the party of freedmen and blacks and their allies, though this started to change a bit with Woodrow Wilson (ironic considering his actions on race relations). Urban elites and liberals were somewhat divided between parties, the Democrats could boast controlling the big city machines while the Republicans had more businessmen and industrial tycoons (until Teddy Roosevelt, but they were back come Harding's time). The Northeast and the Midwest were the Republican bastions of power, while the South was solid Democrat and the West leaned that way, too.

They didn't really sort themselves out in nice ideological terms until the late 1920s.
 
Back than the Republicans where on the progressive side and the Democrats where conserative. <-- Certainly a plain summary.

It’s also completely wrong.

Here’re a few articles on the subject. One’s by a black person, so I can’t be called racist for suggesting something against the rhetoric. That’s how it works, right? It’s how it works for them, at least.

http://blackrepublican.blogspot.com/2012/06/republicans-and-democrats-did-not.html
http://www.black-and-right.com/2010/03/19/the-dixiecrat-myth/
http://misfitpolitics.co/2011/11/the-magical-myth-of-the-switching-political-parties/

Now certainly I expect anything that’s wrong in there to be called out. Please do! But also take into account what it IS saying. There was no switch.
 
It’s also completely wrong.
<snip>
There was no switch.
I don't see how any of those articles disagree with the sentence you quoted. They agree that Republicans used to be the more progressive of the parties--where they differ from the popular summary is in denying that's changed.
 
So I was reading a book about the American Civil War and the party mechanics at work.

Back than the Republicans where on the progressive side and the Democrats where conserative. <-- Certainly a plain summary.

But how and when did this change? When did the roles reversed?

If I look at the Republican party today, would Lincoln not rotate in his grave?
The Republicans of today don't stand for anything that the majority of Republicans back then didn't support. The only thing they'd dislike would be the pro-CSA elements among the grassroots of Southern Republicans, but those clowns are a minority.

It was the 1860s, a much more socially and economically conservative time. Both parties have moved to the left in every regard, the Democrats just moreso. So less of a switch, and more of the party with the head start falling behind in the race.
 
iirc, the polarity reversal between Republicans and Democrats has to do with Barry Goldwater, who consistently ran as a Democrat but was so conservative (to about the degree of alot of current Republicans, at least relative to his era) and then switched sides to the Republicans, taking alot of Dems with him, for one of the numerous POTUS elections he ran for

just so everyone knows, i may have that switched around (Goldwater being a reall conservative Republican while they were still progressive, etc.) since i didn't look it up to confirm my memory. please correct me if i'm wrong.
 
Even into the 1960s there were 'Southern Democrats' who were deomcrats only in name, and supported all the republican issues.
 
iirc, the polarity reversal between Republicans and Democrats has to do with Barry Goldwater, who consistently ran as a Democrat but was so conservative (to about the degree of alot of current Republicans, at least relative to his era) and then switched sides to the Republicans, taking alot of Dems with him, for one of the numerous POTUS elections he ran for

just so everyone knows, i may have that switched around (Goldwater being a reall conservative Republican while they were still progressive, etc.) since i didn't look it up to confirm my memory. please correct me if i'm wrong.

Yeah, that's not right, sorry. Goldwater only ran for president once and he led a conservative faction of the Republican Party that had been around for decades but were not as powerful as their Northeastern moderate counterparts. When he ran in 1964 he led the GOP to their largest electoral defeat of the second half of the 20th century. His stance on civil rights (or more accurately, LBJ's policies concerning civil rights) helped start the movement of white southerners away from the Democrats towards the GOP. Then the realignment was helped along tremendously by Nixon's Southern Strategy (continued and perfected by Reagan) and culminating in the Gringrich Revolution.
 
Various progressive movements through history have tended to view human society in terms of competing class-based interests, to such a degree that differences between individual humans seem to be forgotten. Looking at blacks as a homogenous mass of violent savages who are inherently opposed to whites isn't fundamentally all that different from looking at capitalists as a homogenous mass of parasitic oppressors who are inherently opposed to the interests of the working class. Indeed, plenty of people widely considered progressive have been out-and-out racists -- the eugenics movement, for example, was chiefly associated with socialist intellectuals. So I don't really think that matters are as simple as just declaring the least-racist side to be the more "progressive" one.
 
Yeah, that's not right, sorry. Goldwater only ran for president once and he led a conservative faction of the Republican Party that had been around for decades but were not as powerful as their Northeastern moderate counterparts. When he ran in 1964 he led the GOP to their largest electoral defeat of the second half of the 20th century. His stance on civil rights (or more accurately, LBJ's policies concerning civil rights) helped start the movement of white southerners away from the Democrats towards the GOP. Then the realignment was helped along tremendously by Nixon's Southern Strategy (continued and perfected by Reagan) and culminating in the Gringrich Revolution.
well i knew he had something to do with the realignment at least :p like i said, i couldn't recall exactly at the time
 
So I was reading a book about the American Civil War and the party mechanics at work.

Back than the Republicans where on the progressive side and the Democrats where conserative. <-- Certainly a plain summary.

But how and when did this change? When did the roles reversed?

Your making the mistake of assuming "Progressive" and "Conservative" mean the same in today's context as they did at the time of the Civil War, as well as the idea that both the Republicans and the Democrats had any ideological cohesion throughout their existence.

Here's my take.

The Republican Party was founded by 1)abolitionist evangelicals and 2)business leaders. Though these groups were not always exclusive, these two groups came to form what could be called a classical liberal party: a party representing free markets, free labor, and free men. In essence, a bourgeois party representing the Yankee and Midwestern Protestant/Evangelical (yes, there is a difference) middle class. They ran on the issue of slavery, and lost in 1856. They then amended their platform to include westward settlement and a transcontinental railroad. Lincoln's nomination represented an attempt to move toward the centre, since he was not promising to abolition slavery entirely. Lincoln himself did not move toward complete abolition until well into the war. After the war, the party continued to be the party of freemen, but mainly as the party of big business. They supported tariffs as a means of protecting American industries, as opposed to free-trade Democrats who wanted lower prices.

Ah, you may ask, what about TR? Wasn't he rather Progressive and left wing? Yes...for the time. Teddy did embrace environmentalism and anti-trust legislation, but most pass over why he did. TR would never embrace New Age ecology. Instead, he would advocate conservation of natural resources so that they could be used later...such as his hunting expeditions. His record on anti-trust suits is moderate at best, because he believed that trusts could be "good" or "bad." His break from Taft was, in part, due to the latter's insistence at going after all trusts. In other words, Taft was too left for TR's tastes. While modern Progressives focus on TR's left-leaning policies, they ignore some of these inconsistencies as well as imperialist foreign policy. If Lincoln would balk at the modern GOP, TR would likewise be appalled at those who call themselves Progressives.

The major shift in the Republican Party began with Nixon, and was solidified with Reagan. Most say it was the "Southern Strategy." The real reason is much more complex.

The Republicans experienced considerable success in the South and elsewhere in the latter 20th Century because of the shift in emphasis. The GOP was perceived to be the party of business, beneficial when the economy was doing good, toxic when the country is going through a depression. Franklin Roosevelt and the New Deal coalition effectively destroyed Republican power in certain sectors, including Blacks. Except for 1946, the Republican Party struggled to compete with the Democrats on the national level, and could only do so when they nominated Dwight Eisenhower. Nixon, not Reagan, euthanized the New Deal coalition in two ways. The first was articulating a populist message. He spoke to a white middle class which felt sidelined by the Civil Rights movement. By this point, African Americans were already moving toward the Democrats and away from the Republicans, so the GOP began targeting traditional New Deal voters: ethnic laborers and Southerners. The second reason was, yes, the Southern Strategy. Again, the real reason is more complex. Yes, Nixon pandered to them after the deep South voted for a Republican for the first time ever in 1964. However, the Republican Party drew Southern whites in as the Democrats pushed them out. 1964 proved that Democrats could appeal to inner-city minorities, and no longer had need for Southern whites. In essence, they told the inherently racist Southern whites to go to hell. Southerners remained loyal to the Democratic party on the state level well into the 21st Century, but now they were willing to pull the lever for a Republican on a presidential level. With the failure of third party regional candidates, Republicans had a chance.

The Democrats, on the other hand, have never been ideologically coherent as they were a coalition of non-Republicans. One unifiying theme of the Democratic Party was populism, thanks to Andrew Jackson in the 1820's and 30's. That's why the Democratic Party could be home to ethnic minorities and white supremacists. That's why Southern agrarians could support the same presidential candidate as union bosses. That's why George Wallace could have significant support in Yankee Irish communities as well as Southern Celts. Only in recent decades has the Democrats as a whole has moved left, with conservative or blue dog Democrats being marginalized or joining the Republicans.

Both parties had their "Progressive" and their "Conservative" strains. Republicans supported civil rights. Democrats supported labor rights. Republicans believed in protectionism. Democrats believed in free trade. Republicans were prejudiced against Irish Catholics. Democrats were prejudiced against blacks. The problem occurs when you try to fit modern notions of "Progressive" and "Conservative" to past leaders and parties. That's why I have grown weary of historiographic sophistry when trying to justify political ideology. While truth does not change, circumstances do. It's foolish to assume that those in the past would conform to our sensibilities in this manner.

If I look at the Republican party today, would Lincoln not rotate in his grave?
If you go on that track, I think Andrew Jackson, Franklin Roosevelt, and John F Kennedy would find different aspects of the modern Democratic Party revolting. It's rather dangerous to play this games as to how certain figures would find today.

Edit:
Various progressive movements through history have tended to view human society in terms of competing class-based interests, to such a degree that differences between individual humans seem to be forgotten. Looking at blacks as a homogenous mass of violent savages who are inherently opposed to whites isn't fundamentally all that different from looking at capitalists as a homogenous mass of parasitic oppressors who are inherently opposed to the interests of the working class. Indeed, plenty of people widely considered progressive have been out-and-out racists -- the eugenics movement, for example, was chiefly associated with socialist intellectuals. So I don't really think that matters are as simple as just declaring the least-racist side to be the more "progressive" one.

Quite right, especially on eugenics. They existed in both right and left wing circles, but especially among early Progressives, notably Woodrow Wilson (a Progressive) and Margaret Sanger. Both the right and the left have skeletons in their closet. That's why it's dangerous to say one party or movement has always been clean.
 
well i knew he had something to do with the realignment at least :p like i said, i couldn't recall exactly at the time

No worries, Goldwater was indeed an important player in that whole process. I would add, though, that it wasn't his conservatism that drove Southerners to him in 1964. It was his opposition to the civil rights legislation (championed first by a Massachusetts aristocrat then by a good ole boy from Texas who was viewed as a traitor) of the decade that made them pull the lever for the GOP for the first time ever. Fast forward four years later and they are voting for Wallace and his even harsher views on civil rights. Put Goldwater and Wallace next to each other and the only thing they will agree on is a mutual opposition to federal civil rights legislation. It took repeated elections of Republicans playing up the civil rights "boogeyman" for the South to go completely GOP. The region has since gotten much more conservative in my estimation.
 
No worries, Goldwater was indeed an important player in that whole process. I would add, though, that it wasn't his conservatism that drove Southerners to him in 1964. It was his opposition to the civil rights legislation (championed first by a Massachusetts aristocrat then by a good ole boy from Texas who was viewed as a traitor) of the decade that made them pull the lever for the GOP for the first time ever. Fast forward four years later and they are voting for Wallace and his even harsher views on civil rights. Put Goldwater and Wallace next to each other and the only thing they will agree on is a mutual opposition to federal civil rights legislation. It took repeated elections of Republicans playing up the civil rights "boogeyman" for the South to go completely GOP. The region has since gotten much more conservative in my estimation.
now that i think about it, i think that was how it was told to me in the first place, that it was more about the Civil Rights Movement than anything else
 

jahenders

Banned
Much of that is correct, but I don't think the last bit about Nixon/Reagan is correct. I think the solidification came in the late 60s/early 70s when the hippie movement and Vietnam formed a societal rift. During that rift, liberal/progressive and conservative kind of settled where they are.

The other key element was before that with the growth of labor. Democrats were seen as the party that would support labor (Republicans being more pro-business), so the labor unions supported Dems where labor was strong (esp cities), giving Democrats a total lock on those areas. Dems in those areas then "gave back" by supporting labor and in growing government, encouraging migration of those who benefit by government programs to those areas.

The Republican Party started to shift to the right sometime before, during and after WW2, when the Democrats under FDR and Truman slowly became more and more the progressive liberal party as a result of FDR's New Deal and various other policies enacted during this time period, the final shift came later under Nixon and Reagan; who's largely conservative political views and pandering to the right firmly entrenched the Republicans as the party of the right.
 
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