Question regarding TL-191 (American occupation of the CSA)

[Cire]

Except the US tells Mexico in the last book they have no plans to overthrow them. And given what the US is going to be going through in the reconstruction of the South, in Utah, and Canada, and the host of other issues that the US is going to be facing having just fought a brutal three-year long war that came with the revelation of genocide, they probably just don't care as long as Mexico doesn't make any trouble.

I respectfully disagree. Also, even if the US told the Empire of Mexico that it would not overthrow their regime, that promise was probably made by the La Follette administration, and may or may not have been adhered to by the incoming Dewey administration. After all, what good is a promise in the 191 universe? Also, who is to say that the people of Mexico themselves wouldn't over throw the Emperor, and maybe some Mexican general would like to see him self in charge of his own country, instead of some French aristocrat?

In my spare time I enjoy doing landscape paintings. The other day I went to an exhibit and saw that another artist had done a painting of one of my favorite spots in a nearby state park. A place called Zephyr Cove. I looked over his painting, and then I compared it to mine on my phone. After comparing the two pictures I quickly realized that the other artists had gotten everything all wrong, and his landscape looked nothing like mine, even though we had both painted images of exactly the same scene! He had gotten the lighting, the mood, and the perspective all wrong, and it just irked me to no end that another painter could look at exactly the same scene, which I had looked at, and not paint exactly the same landscape painting that I had created! The never of that other fellow! Who does he think that he is not following the artistic example that I have already set down for others to follow? -- You see Joshua, this is exactly how you sound to me, and for some reason you seem to think that only Joshua is allowed to make speculations over what may have happened following In at the Death.

A while back I stumbled across some of your earlier postings in this forum regarding the 191 timeline, and found them to be very interesting. Your material is what prompted me to start posting things in this forum, but how entertaining would it be if I simply copied your scenarios? Do we have to be enemies simply because we don't see eye-to-eye about events in fictional universe? After all, this is nothing but entertainment, and no one here can say that they have an authoritative control over it. Unless of course your name happens to be Harry Turtledove?

 

[Joshua Ben Ari]

I respectfully disagree. Also, even if the US told the Empire of Mexico that it would not overthrow their regime, that promise was probably made by the La Follette administration, and may or may not have been adhered to by the incoming Dewey administration. After all, what good is a promise in the 191 universe? Also, who is to say that the people of Mexico themselves wouldn't over throw the Emperor, and maybe some Mexican general would like to see him self in charge of his own country, instead of some French aristocrat?

I believe it was the Dewey administration after he had won against La Follette which made the deal, but I'd have to double check that in the book. The Turtledove wiki suggests it was the Dewey administration as well, but it is a wiki so take that with a grain of salt. Either way, the US is going to be focused on themselves economically and thus won't mind the Mexican Emperor staying around for a bit.

And you are right, it's entirely possible that a Mexican general or the Mexican people themselves would rise up against the Imperial government. I mean, two Mexican divisions got wiped out in Philadelphia during Operation Coalscuttle, and five divisions were fighting African-Confederate rebels in the Deep South. They'd have legitimate grievances with the Imperial government in Mexico City. But based on what we (admittedly little) know about Mexico, I don't think they'll rebel. I could be wrong and it is just my opinion.

And Maximilian was Austrian, not French. Minor quibble.

In my spare time I enjoy doing landscape paintings. The other day I went to an exhibit and saw that another artist had done a painting of one of my favorite spots in a nearby state park. A place called Zephyr Cove. I looked over his painting, and then I compared it to mine on my phone. After comparing the two pictures I quickly realized that the other artists had gotten everything all wrong, and his landscape looked nothing like mine, even though we had both painted images of exactly the same scene! He had gotten the lighting, the mood, and the perspective all wrong, and it just irked me to no end that another painter could look at exactly the same scene, which I had looked at, and not paint exactly the same landscape painting that I had created! The never of that other fellow! Who does he think that he is not following the artistic example that I have already set down for others to follow? -- You see Joshua, this is exactly how you sound to me, and for some reason you seem to think that only Joshua is allowed to make speculations over what may have happened following In at the Death.

A while back I stumbled across some of your earlier postings in this forum regarding the 191 timeline, and found them to be very interesting. Your material is what prompted me to start posting things in this forum, but how entertaining would it be if I simply copied your scenarios? Do we have to be enemies simply because we don't see eye-to-eye about events in fictional universe? After all, this is nothing but entertainment, and no one here can say that they have an authoritative control over it. Unless of course your name happens to be Harry Turtledove?

I don't think I have - nor deserve - the only right to make speculations about the post-In at the Death world (David Bar Elias's After the End TL speaks for that, as do the host of other threads which imagine a future after the SGW). I am making suggestions. If you want to write a TL-191 post-war timeline where the US can sponsor a Mexican pro-republican coup against the Mexican Emperor, go for it. You want to write your own TL-191 timeline like DBE? Go for it. Want to speculate on what will happen in the future? Go for it. What I post are suggestions and speculations, and I base those on what I read in the books and what seems most plausible in the 191 universe.

Now, could I have phrased them in a less confrontational way? Yes, and I do apologize if they did come across as confrontational.

 

[David bar Elias]

(In partial answer to the original post):

It seems clear from the end of the series that the USA intends to reabsorb the former CSA (barring Texas). While it’s true that the ex-CSA is now divided into a number of military districts, it’s clearly meant as a stopgap measure before civilian rule can be restored.

Remember, the final surrender of the CSA is at Pineville, North Carolina, which was chosen in part for being James Polk’s birthplace (a Southern-born pre-Secession President). US politicians like Vice President Truman were already visiting places like Florida and trying to appeal to a shared history in pursuit of reunion.

It certainly won’t be a smooth process of reabsorbing the ex-CSA, but at the end of the day, the terrible series of wars between the two nations is finally over. There’s no other power in North America in 1944 in TTL who can challenge the USA’s territorial hegemony. From a narrative point of view it’s likely that that’s why Harry Turtledove ended the series when he did.

 

[Pelranius]

Worse comes to worse, America could do a yahr null to sweep away traces of the confederacy a couple decades or so down the road.

 

[pattontank12]

Personally I don't think the United States will be able to hold down both the Confederacy and Canada in the long run. Thanks to the points "Joshua Ben Ari" pointed out since that the Union has become just as ravaged as post ww2 Europe in OTL without the Marshall Plan. While also trying to absorb the even more ravaged Confederacy, who's been an independent nation and regional power for the last 80 years.

That's not even getting into the fact that the United States is most likely going to be entering a possible three way Cold War with Japan and to a lesser extent Germany. A Japan that from what we've been able to glean from the books is just has bad has its OTL counterpart but also managed to come out of the war nearly completely intact and with the resources of Asia at its disposal. Frankly it came out as the big winner of the Second Great War, while its two biggest rivals have become war ravaged and it won't be long till they get the superbomb.

 

[Cire]

I mean, two Mexican divisions got wiped out in Philadelphia during Operation Coalscuttle, and five divisions were fighting African-Confederate rebels in the Deep South. They'd have legitimate grievances with the Imperial government in Mexico City.

And not only that, but I think that quite a few people in the US would have a bone to pick with the Empire of Mexico regarding their troops fighting on American soil as well.

 

[Cire]

the Union has become just as ravaged as post ww2 Europe in OTL

How can that be when entire regions of the US were never effected by the war at all? But I agree that the US cannot hold down both Canada and the CS, so the thing to do is turn Canada into a puppet state, and to withdraw most US troops there and to send them to the CS.