Proposals and War Aims That Didn't Happen Map Thread

walmart

uls6zf6q7si51.jpg

Does anyone know what the Soviet Plan for central Poland was for the original division ?
 

xmoose

walmart said:
uls6zf6q7si51.jpg

Does anyone know what the Soviet Plan for central Poland was for the original division ?
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Not sure, but I think there was an idea of some sort of polish puppet state or soviet republic - don´t know if meant seriously or just as bargain chip - change of borders to OTL version was to be justified by that (possibly something along line: you don´t want communist rump poland on your borders, right? Than take it and give us Lithuania instead)
(I think this was mentioned in T. Snyders Stalin and Europe)
On the other hand, I can see at least some parts of central Poland being adjacent to Ukraine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kholm_Governorate_(Russian_Empire); https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakerzonia) - yeah, there would be polish majority at the time probably, but some sort of... ethnical changes... wasn´t unheard of in USSR around that time...
 

NeonHydroxide

walmart said:
Does anyone know what the Soviet Plan for central Poland was for the original division ?
Click to expand...
The 'original division' was intentionally left vague. Here is the full text:

Article I
In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement in the areas belonging to the Baltic States (Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania), the northern boundary of Lithuania shall represent the boundary of the spheres of influence of Germany and U.S.S.R. In this connection the interest of Lithuania in the Vilnius area is recognized by each party.

Article II
In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement of the areas belonging to the Polish state, the spheres of influence of Germany and the U.S.S.R. shall be bounded approximately by the line of the rivers Narew, Vistula and San.

The question of whether the interests of both parties make desirable the maintenance of an independent Polish state and how such a state should be bounded can only be definitely determined in the course of further political developments.

In any event both governments will resolve this question by means of a friendly agreement.

Article III
With regard to Southeastern Europe attention is called by the Soviet side to its interest in Bessarabia. The German side declares its complete political disinterest in these areas.

Article IV
This protocol shall be treated by both parties as strictly secret.
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Here you can see the rivers which the text mentions:

Vistula_river_map.png


The change in the later Boundary and Friendship Treaty was made because the German forces advanced faster than anticipated into Poland relative to Soviet forces, and rather than evacuating territories east of the 'river line,' the Germans took control of a larger share of Poland and the Soviets were compensated with (most of) Lithuania.
 

Jan Olbracht

Proposed Polish-Soviet border in East Prussia:

Granice19451-716x234.jpg


Pink line-February 1945.
Red line-August 1945.

Both further north than current border.

Historia granicy polsko-rosyjskiej

Na stronie www.klgd.ru znaleźć można przedruk z gazety „Argumenty i Fakty” wydanej w Kaliningradzie „04 styczeń 1998. Artykuł zatytułowany Historia granicy polsko-rosyjskiej przedstawia garść informacji dotyczących zmian przebiegu polsko-rosyjskiej granicy na terenie dawnych Prus Wschodnich i...
goldap.org.pl
 

arps123_woo

Map of Prometheism ?? (Russia’s balkanization planned by Pilsudski’s Poland).
 

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Crazy Boris

Crazy Boris

Banned
Wendell said:
While researching this, I learned that there was a proposal for a personal union between the second French Empire and... Ecuador.
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I wonder, if this had gone through somehow and the second empire still falls as OTL, could Napoleon III run off to Quito and the Bonapartes could keep ruling there, or if Ecuador would restore the republic as soon as things look sketchy in Paris
 

Ekg

Today I learned Austria discussed the idea to help Britain against France in the ARW. I wonder what would have been the consequences of such a joint campaign on the issue of USA independance
 

Wendell

Crazy Boris said:
I wonder, if this had gone through somehow and the second empire still falls as OTL, could Napoleon III run off to Quito and the Bonapartes could keep ruling there, or if Ecuador would restore the republic as soon as things look sketchy in Paris
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It's an interesting question. While things could go either way, I suspect that the Bonapartes would lose power there as well.
 

xmoose

Ekg said:
Today I learned Austria discussed the idea to help Britain against France in the ARW. I wonder what would have been the consequences of such a joint campaign on the issue of USA independance
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Destruction of Austria, I suppose
Emperor Joseph was quite ambitious, he force Austria into partition of Poland and also tried to take Bavaria or at least part of it. According to some, his ambitions included also Venetia, of course Silesia (only few decades back than lost) and... Lorraine (Josephs father was duke of Lorraine, before being forced to give it up for Tuscany), so that would be possible price?
On the other hand, France was at that time austrian ally (even if maybe not very useful), while main enemy of Habsburgs was still Prussia, which, I suppose, wouldn´t miss such opportunity to attack.
Relations with other german princes weren´t also great, as far as I know.
Moreover, Austria was quite busy at the time, due to Bavarian succesion war (1778/9)
It doesn´t make much sense to me for Joseph to went to war against France at that moment.
 
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Ekg

xmoose said:
Destruction of Austria, I suppose
Emperor Joseph was quite ambitious, he force Austria into partition of Poland and also tried to take Bavaria or at least part of it. According to some, his ambitions included also Venetia, of course Silesia (only few decades back than lost) and... Lorraine (Josephs father was duke of Lorraine, before being forced to give it up for Tuscany), so that would be possible price?
On the other hand, France was at that time austrian ally (even if maybe not very useful), while main enemy of Habsburgs was still Prussia, which, I suppose, wouldn´t miss such opportunity to attack.
Relations with other german princes weren´t also great, as far as I know.
Moreover, Austria was quite busy at the time, due to Bavarian succesion war (1778/9)
It doesn´t make much sense to me for Joseph to went to war against France at that moment.
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It seems Joseph was willing to trade the alliance with France, which as you said wasn't really useful and performed poorly in military matters, for one with Britain which at the times was in war with a good chunk of western Europe and imposing itself as a major player on the continent. I feel like you are right on the ambitions of the guy, and he wasn't afraid by the idea of new alliances and radicals ideas on the geopoliticals goals of Austria...
I found these ideas appeling for an AH TL, with Joseph as a napoleon of sort redrawing european politics
 

xmoose

Ekg said:
It seems Joseph was willing to trade the alliance with France, which as you said wasn't really useful and performed poorly in military matters, for one with Britain which at the times was in war with a good chunk of western Europe and imposing itself as a major player on the continent.
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Do you have some source, or are these "just" your speculations?
Alliance with France, however poor, had one (I would say pretty big) advantage: it neutralised France as an enemy.
Then there is Prussia, I am convinced it will attack Austria. Heck, I know nothing about its capacity to wage war on another front, but what about Spain? In the end, we can have worst case scenario of war on three fronts (with at least some token austrian forces stuck along hungarian military frontier?), with Britain (how much able or willing to help on land?) as sole ally (plus maybe some minor german prince? not that it would be much help... and some other may ally with Prussia against Austria...) against remaining powers (ok, Russia, it was at that time formally Prussian ally, but in early 80s, according to wiki, started to follow more pro-austrian course... I wouldn´t count on them however)
Btw interesting comparison with Napoleon - Joseph was also toying with possibility of some mediatization and secularization (possibly not that different from otl?)
 
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