Proposals and War Aims That Didn't Happen Map Thread

athgtq16129

About Imperial Japan's extremely optimistic plans, does anyone knows what is the source of Japan's "Government-General of Central America"? most ASB Axis Victory maps portray all of Central America and the Caribbean as Japanese-controlled territories, but I have a hard time believing this even by WWII Japan standards, did they actually plan that?

Is this mentioned somewhere in Visions of Victory by Gerhard Weinberg? I do not have the book yet but it is apparently a great book to see the plans of the Axis for use in fictional worldbuilding and mapmaking.



The only source that mentions it is this museum website straight from 2008: http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/G/r/Greater_East_Asia_Co-Prosperity_Sphere.htm

There is also this interesting map from a 2010 DeviantArt post mentioned on a thread here also from 2010, it doesn't seems to be fanart to me, so not sure of which source it comes from, the only other internet site featuring this map is some sketchy Korean website, but I obviously don't speak Korean.

www.deviantart.com

Greater East Asian Sphere by MorganHauser-2010 on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com www.deviantart.com

The Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere...what was it really supposed to be like?

Okay, we can find tons of information about what Hitler (and to a lesser extent Mussolini) envisioned for Europe and (again to a lesser extent) the wider world. But when it comes to Asia and Japan's plans it all still seems rather sketchy and at times contradictory. We all know that Japan...
www.alternatehistory.com
 
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mikroraptor

mikroraptor

Mr. Bubbles said:
View attachment 532843
Partially the successor of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria, The Caucasus Emirate was the aim of the jihadist group of the same name, who wished to expel Russian influence from the region and establish an Islamic state in the region. The group existed from 2007 until 2015, when all but two very small remnant factions joined up with ISIL.
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Looks an awful lot like the Mountainous Republic of the Northern Caucasus
 

FancyHat

Albidoom said:
According to reddit this was Atatürk's vision what Turkey's borders should be...
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seems similar to the Misak-ı Millî, the last six decisions made by the Ottoman Parliament which set out what they wanted to happen to the state's remaining unoccupied territories and border territories with Turkish populations. notably this doesn't include nearly as much of the Balkans but does at least keep the posibility of retaining a lot more of the Levant and Arabia (in the map from Wikipedia below, the hatched areas' status was to be determined by referendum).
Misak-i_milli.png


I believe I actually made a WorldA recreation of this a while ago. should take another look at that, see if it should be revised at all.
 
ST15RM

ST15RM

athgtq16129 said:
About Imperial Japan's extremely optimistic plans, does anyone knows what is the source of Japan's "Government-General of Central America"? most ASB Axis Victory maps portray all of Central America and the Caribbean as Japanese-controlled territories, but I have a hard time believing this even by WWII Japan standards, did they actually plan that?

Is this mentioned somewhere in Visions of Victory by Gerhard Weinberg? I do not have the book yet but it is apparently a great book to see the plans of the Axis for use in fictional worldbuilding and mapmaking.



The only source that mentions it is this museum website straight from 2008: http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/G/r/Greater_East_Asia_Co-Prosperity_Sphere.htm

There is also this interesting map from a 2010 DeviantArt post mentioned on a thread here also from 2010, it doesn't seems to be fanart to me, so not sure of which source it comes from, the only other internet site featuring this map is some sketchy Korean website, but I obviously don't speak Korean.

www.deviantart.com

Greater East Asian Sphere by MorganHauser-2010 on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com www.deviantart.com

The Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere...what was it really supposed to be like?

Okay, we can find tons of information about what Hitler (and to a lesser extent Mussolini) envisioned for Europe and (again to a lesser extent) the wider world. But when it comes to Asia and Japan's plans it all still seems rather sketchy and at times contradictory. We all know that Japan...
www.alternatehistory.com
Click to expand...
the wikipedia article on the geacps mentions it.
 

athgtq16129

ST15RM said:
the wikipedia article on the geacps mentions it.
Click to expand...
Well yeah, but it is Wikipedia we're talking about, we should be talking about the sources rather than the article itself, and also, the mention of that Government-General of Central America was removed from the page.

The Wiki page still mentions Japan planning to conquer Central America and the Caribbean in pages 62-65 of Weinberg's book, anyone here who has that book can verify this? even more weirder to believe that Japan would directly control these areas, rather than client states, after all it would make sense for them to want influence around these areas if they planned to own the Panama Canal, but all these places literally becoming Japanese territories?

Should Japan annex California with its large Japanese minority and strategic position in the Pacific? nah, make it a puppet state - but Colombia, Ecuador, Central America, Cuba, Haiti, the Dominican Republic, the Bahamas, and Jamaica? they should all be Japanese prefectures for the Yamato race, I also remember reading a few years ago something similar to "Guyana, Suriname, French Guyana, and the Antilles would be open for negotiation between Germany and Japan after the war" lmao.
 
Iron_Lord

Iron_Lord

Aha! Russian Conquest of the Balkans, During the Napoleonic Wars. There was plans for a United March With Alexander the I and Napoleon to March on Constantinople. Could anyone make a map?
 

xsampa

athgtq16129 said:
Well yeah, but it is Wikipedia we're talking about, we should be talking about the sources rather than the article itself, and also, the mention of that Government-General of Central America was removed from the page.

The Wiki page still mentions Japan planning to conquer Central America and the Caribbean in pages 62-65 of Weinberg's book, anyone here who has that book can verify this? even more weirder to believe that Japan would directly control these areas, rather than client states, after all it would make sense for them to want influence around these areas if they planned to own the Panama Canal, but all these places literally becoming Japanese territories?

Should Japan annex California with its large Japanese minority and strategic position in the Pacific? nah, make it a puppet state - but Colombia, Ecuador, Central America, Cuba, Haiti, the Dominican Republic, the Bahamas, and Jamaica? they should all be Japanese prefectures for the Yamato race, I also remember reading a few years ago something similar to "Guyana, Suriname, French Guyana, and the Antilles would be open for negotiation between Germany and Japan after the war" lmao.
Click to expand...
It makes more sense for them to be clients because it would support “Liberation from European/white control”
 

Chris S

athgtq16129 said:
Well yeah, but it is Wikipedia we're talking about, we should be talking about the sources rather than the article itself, and also, the mention of that Government-General of Central America was removed from the page.

The Wiki page still mentions Japan planning to conquer Central America and the Caribbean in pages 62-65 of Weinberg's book, anyone here who has that book can verify this? even more weirder to believe that Japan would directly control these areas, rather than client states, after all it would make sense for them to want influence around these areas if they planned to own the Panama Canal, but all these places literally becoming Japanese territories?

Should Japan annex California with its large Japanese minority and strategic position in the Pacific? nah, make it a puppet state - but Colombia, Ecuador, Central America, Cuba, Haiti, the Dominican Republic, the Bahamas, and Jamaica? they should all be Japanese prefectures for the Yamato race, I also remember reading a few years ago something similar to "Guyana, Suriname, French Guyana, and the Antilles would be open for negotiation between Germany and Japan after the war" lmao.
Click to expand...
I have that book and that is what that map I did is originally based off of. Weinberg book directly mentions the Government-General of Central America on pages 64-65 and states that it was to include "Guatemala, San Salvador, Honduras, British Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama, Colombia, the Maracaibo (western) portion of Venezuela, Ecuador, Cuba, Haiti, Dominica*, Jamaica, and the Bahamas. The future of Trinidad, British and Dutch Guiana, and the British and French possessions in the Leeward Islands were left open for negotiations with the Germans after the war. Furthermore, if Mexico, Peru, and/or Chile entered the war against Japan, substantial parts of those states were also to be ceded to Japan."

*I assumed that "Dominica" is actually referring to the Dominican Republic as that is a common mistake.

Weinberg mentions this from the "Land Disposal Plan in the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" and in a note to this (the note being found on page 243) says that the full document is published in Appendix II in The Double Patriots: A Study of Japanese Nationalism by Richard Storry (1957).

As to why that mention was dropped from wikipedia, looking back one can see where a user named "Rjensen" removed in on September 15, 2018 because that bit had been uncited since 2015. However looking at older versions of the article I suspect that bit was noted as "unsourced" because the previous bit about the Alaska Government-General had some additional information to the Weinberg reference (which was the general reference for all of the listed intended territories) and this additional information (concerning turning the American West Coast of California and Oregon into a semi-autonomous satellite state) is given a citation. This probably led some other random user (in 2015) to assume that the information on Central America was unsourced.
 
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