It would seem, the a-bombs are going to drop. Keep in mind that the USA had only 3 working versions after the trinity test IOTL in 1945. In 1946, about 10 more were made. So, in reality, the a-bomb would not have been enough to end the war if either nation was intent upon continuing the fight.
Prolonging the Futility: A WW2 European TL
- Thread starter pattersonautobody
- Start date
These aircraft seem better than what they are because they were not mass produced. So, I honestly think producing a cheaper FW-190 under license would make more sense, especially considering that it would be more reliable and probably perceived as better--and the FW-190 was a bit better all around anyway. Furthermore, the Re-2005 was already using a German powerplant, so the Italians probably would have not minded a more up-to date powerplant in 1944.
Aug 45: The mushroom clouds begin
Aug 45: The mushroom clouds begin
With Romanian territories partitioned between Hungary, Italy, and Ukraine, Romanian forces held up in the Carpathians were significant at this juncture—nearly 400,000 strong. Without a serious chance at resupply, they cooperated with the Soviets in a breakout into Moldova as part of an operation attended to break through the pocket and split what was left of Bandera’s Ukraine into two.
Progress was slow. It was clear that the Soviets were aiming for the Romanians to exhaust themselves. Bandera clung on. The Soviets were exhausted. Serious operations into East Prussia were a more important investment than occupying the remainder of Ukraine and Moldova. Many of the Romanians were captured, others defected to become Axis collaborators in occupation duties elsewhere (as they would not be allowed in Romania). Others were sent to factories in Germany and Italy. About 125,000 remained in the Carpathians and held out as a guerilla force.
On the western front, the Germans had local counterattacks as their numbers swelled from stripping the east. Moves to liberate Munich were rebuffed, but costly to the Americans. Cologne was completely liberated. On August 5th, it appeared the Germans could “win” the war by bleeding the Wallies white.
On August 6th, Berlin was bombed with an atomic bomb., The attack killed Papen (who happened to be in the direct vicinity where the bomb was dropped), but it was otherwise underwhelming in its destruction. It mostly destroyed parts of the city which were already destroyed and was not particularly more deadly than a typical 1,000 bomber raid.
Elements of the military attempted to put Goering back into power and make peace. However, conservatives within the military arrested and killed all of these men—Goering included. They had largely fought their opposition to a standstill, they thought. A peace can still be made retaining, the Sudetenland, Memel, Denmark, parts of southern Norway (which were still in German hands), and Poland. There would be no “stab in the back.”
The next target was meant to strengthen British resolve to resume the offensive. On August 9th, Cologne was bombed with an atomic weapon. The German military was equipped to leave the city, as the August 6th bombing made clear the war had taken a new turn. Radar detected a limited number of aircraft coming, something indicating this was not a normal bomber raid. The raid killed 50,000 German civilians, but left most of the defense intact as they had withdrew from the city (though when many returned it was clear that radiation sickness was a major problem).
When Germany did not surrender, the United States attempted dropping another bomb on Cologne again on August 19. The B29 was shut down by a Me 262 and the weapon was actually captured (though heavily damaged). This frightened the Wallies, that the bomb could be repaired and used against London in a death ride—though it was far too damaged.
At this point, the German military unleashed chemical weapons against the Wallies, fired from artillery and V1-F1 rockets as a retaliation. Many hit port cities and even parts of England, severely hampering re-supply.
It should be noted that the V2’s development stopped after the bombing of Peenemunde in 1943, as when development was resumed it was modified as an antiaircraft weapon, the Wasserfall. Dr. Walter Thiel was on vacation at the time, and resumed the Wasserfall project in southern Germany. Successful tests of the weapon were completed in December of 1944, and a somewhat workable proximity fuse was completed by April (and anti-aircraft shell versions slightly before that). German military planners had just begun serious production and shipments of these weapons by August.
The Germans publicized the use of chemical weapons as retaliation and hoped this would not escalate the war to be a full-scale chemical conflict. The Wallies retaliated and their strikes mostly did not affect German civilians who were safe within basements and shelters, but it did help disperse German resistance in front of Cologne, which provided the British (with now American support) the opportunity to take the city.
The soldiers were assured that quickly passing through the city would not result in radiation sickness. This turned out to not be the case and occupying the city became a humanitarian disaster, as the Wallies had to both supply the local (and sick population) and worry about British soldiers who were getting sick.
At this point, the United States was out of atomic bombs and its remaining bomb was retained for a strike against Japan, hoping it would encourage them to surrender. This bomb dropped in October 1945 on Nagasaki, but the nation resolved to keep fighting. Operation Downfall would occur in November 1945.
With Romanian territories partitioned between Hungary, Italy, and Ukraine, Romanian forces held up in the Carpathians were significant at this juncture—nearly 400,000 strong. Without a serious chance at resupply, they cooperated with the Soviets in a breakout into Moldova as part of an operation attended to break through the pocket and split what was left of Bandera’s Ukraine into two.
Progress was slow. It was clear that the Soviets were aiming for the Romanians to exhaust themselves. Bandera clung on. The Soviets were exhausted. Serious operations into East Prussia were a more important investment than occupying the remainder of Ukraine and Moldova. Many of the Romanians were captured, others defected to become Axis collaborators in occupation duties elsewhere (as they would not be allowed in Romania). Others were sent to factories in Germany and Italy. About 125,000 remained in the Carpathians and held out as a guerilla force.
On the western front, the Germans had local counterattacks as their numbers swelled from stripping the east. Moves to liberate Munich were rebuffed, but costly to the Americans. Cologne was completely liberated. On August 5th, it appeared the Germans could “win” the war by bleeding the Wallies white.
On August 6th, Berlin was bombed with an atomic bomb., The attack killed Papen (who happened to be in the direct vicinity where the bomb was dropped), but it was otherwise underwhelming in its destruction. It mostly destroyed parts of the city which were already destroyed and was not particularly more deadly than a typical 1,000 bomber raid.
Elements of the military attempted to put Goering back into power and make peace. However, conservatives within the military arrested and killed all of these men—Goering included. They had largely fought their opposition to a standstill, they thought. A peace can still be made retaining, the Sudetenland, Memel, Denmark, parts of southern Norway (which were still in German hands), and Poland. There would be no “stab in the back.”
The next target was meant to strengthen British resolve to resume the offensive. On August 9th, Cologne was bombed with an atomic weapon. The German military was equipped to leave the city, as the August 6th bombing made clear the war had taken a new turn. Radar detected a limited number of aircraft coming, something indicating this was not a normal bomber raid. The raid killed 50,000 German civilians, but left most of the defense intact as they had withdrew from the city (though when many returned it was clear that radiation sickness was a major problem).
When Germany did not surrender, the United States attempted dropping another bomb on Cologne again on August 19. The B29 was shut down by a Me 262 and the weapon was actually captured (though heavily damaged). This frightened the Wallies, that the bomb could be repaired and used against London in a death ride—though it was far too damaged.
At this point, the German military unleashed chemical weapons against the Wallies, fired from artillery and V1-F1 rockets as a retaliation. Many hit port cities and even parts of England, severely hampering re-supply.
It should be noted that the V2’s development stopped after the bombing of Peenemunde in 1943, as when development was resumed it was modified as an antiaircraft weapon, the Wasserfall. Dr. Walter Thiel was on vacation at the time, and resumed the Wasserfall project in southern Germany. Successful tests of the weapon were completed in December of 1944, and a somewhat workable proximity fuse was completed by April (and anti-aircraft shell versions slightly before that). German military planners had just begun serious production and shipments of these weapons by August.
The Germans publicized the use of chemical weapons as retaliation and hoped this would not escalate the war to be a full-scale chemical conflict. The Wallies retaliated and their strikes mostly did not affect German civilians who were safe within basements and shelters, but it did help disperse German resistance in front of Cologne, which provided the British (with now American support) the opportunity to take the city.
The soldiers were assured that quickly passing through the city would not result in radiation sickness. This turned out to not be the case and occupying the city became a humanitarian disaster, as the Wallies had to both supply the local (and sick population) and worry about British soldiers who were getting sick.
At this point, the United States was out of atomic bombs and its remaining bomb was retained for a strike against Japan, hoping it would encourage them to surrender. This bomb dropped in October 1945 on Nagasaki, but the nation resolved to keep fighting. Operation Downfall would occur in November 1945.
So have the USSR stopped to rebuild infrastructure or have they just peaced our with any territory they reconquered and said "See you in a few years when we can go again"
Are they now developing their own bomb? They knew about it when it first detonated, so they probably knew about it here...
Are they now developing their own bomb? They knew about it when it first detonated, so they probably knew about it here...
The USSR has captured the majority (and not even all) of Ukraine a year late. German bombing raids shut down production in Baku (a bit) for several weeks. Bulgaria (and its dozen or so divisions) and Romania (ditto) have not joined the Soviet side in 1944. Hence, their manpower is tapped. They can hold local offensives in singular sectors, but that's it. The Wallies have not made concessions significant enough where they will get enough post-war to justify pushing harder than they already are. They are simply pushing hard enough to keep lend lease going.
The Soviets are developing a bomb, but IOTL it took until 1949. Not much changes ITTL for the construction of the Soviet bomb. The Germans flat out captured one, but even then they will not be able to build one overnight. Also, with the V2 program shut down and no viable delivery system for the bomb, there is not too much they can do with it.
The post-war world is going to look interesting.
Sept 45 – Nov 45: When is the beginning of the end?
The western front had largely stabilized. Allied intelligence picked up on a German offensive that never happened. Germany was largely spent as a fighting force, but was well equipped to continue defending. The population was largely starving, as P51 Mustangs generally flew into the countryside unopposed, taking out targets of opportunity including horse-drawn wagons.
The Allied dropping of chemical weapons as well as their bombing campaigns started becoming as costly as their first forays into daylight strategic bombing in 1943. The German investment into the proximity fuse had paid off. The Wasserfall also was available in enough numbers that it started making bomber raids extremely costly (and ineffective given that they were not hitting targets all that accurately). Nighttime bomber raids were just as ineffective. While damage was being done in excess of their own losses, a certain malaise started taking over the Allied soldiers and airmen. The open chemical war had largely stabilized the front, and the upcoming attack on Japan meant that reinforcements were not coming quick enough to bring about the superiority in numbers necessary to have a significant breakthrough against Germany in the west.
The remainder of Norway fell into American hands and follow up landings occurred in Denmark and were successful. Another front was opened against Germany.
Germany had finally developed a second-generation jet, the TA-183. It’s Jumo 004B turbojets, even with Turkish chromium, were still unreliable. However, the aircraft was about as reliable as the ME262, which at this point of the war proved itself as superior to the British and American alternatives. However, the Luftwaffe was so outnumbered, they would be only occasionally a nuisance. Wasserfall batteries were starting to come online near airfields, but they were not all that effective against highly maneuverable fighter bombers and their ilk.
The Soviets and Germans at this point were not in the midst of a chemical conflict. The Soviets wanted freedom of movement to attack and the Germans, simply did not have the resources to fight the Soviets with enough artillery to be effective. Hoping to stay out of a shooting war against Hungary, the Soviets threw several tank armies and fronts into the remainder of Lithuania and East Prussia. They steamrolled through, but destroyed infrastructure prevented the Soviets from occupying more than 50 percent of East Prussia.
Operation Downfall turned out to be a disaster for the western allies. Though mostly starved into submission, the sheer tenacity of defense indicated that casualties subduing Japan would be similar to what was experienced in Germany. Experts predicted 250,000 casualties would be experienced by the end of the year.
The biggest surprise came from where no one expected. On October 30th, a massive offensive was unleashed by 1.5 million men, 2,000 Panzer IVs, and enough aircraft that they even enjoyed local air superiority. It was the Italians. The attack was conventional, as neither atomic weapons or chemical weapons were used on Italy at this point.
They were joined by two Panzer divisions commanded by Erwin Rommel, though this added only about 200 tanks (mainly Panther Gs and Stug IVs), as these divisions were severely understrength. Written off as an offensive threat, southern France was defended by the new fledgling French army, Polish divisions, and some American forces. The sheer ferocity of the attack and the local air superiority was unexpected. The Italians, spearheaded by Rommel’s forces, entered Toulon by mid-November. A general panic ensured that frightened Allied forces in southern France, needing that transportation hub.
After having captured massive Allied fuel stores (and a considerable amount of Allied weapons which were foolishly not destroyed due to the lack of discipline of local forces), Rommel turned north, meeting up with Italian forces attacking towards Lyon. The city fell by the end of the month. Hundreds of thousands of American and French forces were surrounded. Even though the objectives were obvious, no one took seriously that the Axis could pull off such an attack. Allied forces, earmarked for a serious, overwhelming attack into Austria, had to be withdrawn to provide additional defense to France. An attack into western Austria did commence, and was successful. Innsbruck, however, held out and became a chemical graveyard.
The Allied dropping of chemical weapons as well as their bombing campaigns started becoming as costly as their first forays into daylight strategic bombing in 1943. The German investment into the proximity fuse had paid off. The Wasserfall also was available in enough numbers that it started making bomber raids extremely costly (and ineffective given that they were not hitting targets all that accurately). Nighttime bomber raids were just as ineffective. While damage was being done in excess of their own losses, a certain malaise started taking over the Allied soldiers and airmen. The open chemical war had largely stabilized the front, and the upcoming attack on Japan meant that reinforcements were not coming quick enough to bring about the superiority in numbers necessary to have a significant breakthrough against Germany in the west.
The remainder of Norway fell into American hands and follow up landings occurred in Denmark and were successful. Another front was opened against Germany.
Germany had finally developed a second-generation jet, the TA-183. It’s Jumo 004B turbojets, even with Turkish chromium, were still unreliable. However, the aircraft was about as reliable as the ME262, which at this point of the war proved itself as superior to the British and American alternatives. However, the Luftwaffe was so outnumbered, they would be only occasionally a nuisance. Wasserfall batteries were starting to come online near airfields, but they were not all that effective against highly maneuverable fighter bombers and their ilk.
The Soviets and Germans at this point were not in the midst of a chemical conflict. The Soviets wanted freedom of movement to attack and the Germans, simply did not have the resources to fight the Soviets with enough artillery to be effective. Hoping to stay out of a shooting war against Hungary, the Soviets threw several tank armies and fronts into the remainder of Lithuania and East Prussia. They steamrolled through, but destroyed infrastructure prevented the Soviets from occupying more than 50 percent of East Prussia.
Operation Downfall turned out to be a disaster for the western allies. Though mostly starved into submission, the sheer tenacity of defense indicated that casualties subduing Japan would be similar to what was experienced in Germany. Experts predicted 250,000 casualties would be experienced by the end of the year.
The biggest surprise came from where no one expected. On October 30th, a massive offensive was unleashed by 1.5 million men, 2,000 Panzer IVs, and enough aircraft that they even enjoyed local air superiority. It was the Italians. The attack was conventional, as neither atomic weapons or chemical weapons were used on Italy at this point.
They were joined by two Panzer divisions commanded by Erwin Rommel, though this added only about 200 tanks (mainly Panther Gs and Stug IVs), as these divisions were severely understrength. Written off as an offensive threat, southern France was defended by the new fledgling French army, Polish divisions, and some American forces. The sheer ferocity of the attack and the local air superiority was unexpected. The Italians, spearheaded by Rommel’s forces, entered Toulon by mid-November. A general panic ensured that frightened Allied forces in southern France, needing that transportation hub.
After having captured massive Allied fuel stores (and a considerable amount of Allied weapons which were foolishly not destroyed due to the lack of discipline of local forces), Rommel turned north, meeting up with Italian forces attacking towards Lyon. The city fell by the end of the month. Hundreds of thousands of American and French forces were surrounded. Even though the objectives were obvious, no one took seriously that the Axis could pull off such an attack. Allied forces, earmarked for a serious, overwhelming attack into Austria, had to be withdrawn to provide additional defense to France. An attack into western Austria did commence, and was successful. Innsbruck, however, held out and became a chemical graveyard.
Hmm, the Germans surrounded 200,000 soldiers on Christmas Eve and secured their surrender in one week? Sorry, even rolling all the sixes you like it ain't happening.
Even the massively outnumbered Stalingrad pocket far behind enemy lines and isolated from support held out for months. The Western Allies have total air superiority once the skies clear, and the long lines of trucks and horses trying to supply troops that want to reduce the pocket would be heavily interdicted. Pockets are not reduced by sitting in a circle around the enemy, they have to be attacked.
You're probably right, but it depends what airfields/size is in the captured area. I suppose a major parachute drop can be attempted, but not even the Wallies can feed 200,000 people this way.
Judging from the numbers of people captured (as compared to the million + in the offensive), the Wallies were simply overwhelmed in this sector and the infrastructure allowed for Lyon and Toulon to be captured within 6 weeks.
They can't keep them fed forever, but long enough for a breakout/breakin to succeed. Meanwhile once the skies clear up, air interdiction would badly cut German supplies needed to attack the pocket. While breaking out may be difficult, in the absence of an all out attack and with the pocket so close to friendly lines only an absolute coward of a general would surrender his force.
In general this TL has too many Axis miracle offensives. As long as the Allies have air supremacy, an offensive may succeed at first but cannot remain supplied in the face of airpower. Remember, you need a strong logistical network to carry fuel and ammunition forwards (especially for fast moving mechanized forces), and as long as the Allies deny that to you through air interdiction of the roads and railways needed to supply and concentrate troops, it doesn't matter if you have another million low quality troops on the attack. They're seeing 1941 levels of success all around, but it isn't 1941 anymore.
The more realistic path is defensive successes, where the lack of mobility isn't as huge of an issue. As the OTL Japanese showed, whenever they tried an offensive on a shoestring in 1944-45 it became total disaster, but if they dug in and stayed on the defensive they were far more dangerous.
The original "small solution" was a double envelopment. Without an eastern front, there will be a lot more Germans on the western front so even with air power, a breakout of all men is not guarenteed.
Unless I misread your TL, the Soviets are still fighting. What do you mean by no eastern front?
In any case, trying to cram more troops down the same crowded roads won't do a lick to stop the Allies from smashing up supply columns, and would in fact create a target rich environment.
Assuming a breakthrough and encirclement does happen, I think a total surrender is out of the question, but we might have a Korsun/Falaise Pocket-like situation where a desperate breakout gets many troops out, but stay disorganized and abandoning a lot of heavy equipment. They should be able to at least do better than the Germans did in those situations considering the far stronger air superiority. The encirclement ring the Germans have must be very thin indeed, for how would you get supplies forward easily through narrow roads in newly captured enemy territory?
Any attempt at a coup is gone after Goering and the "moderates" are murdered.
In short, the eastern front is reduced to the Baltic, hence my hyperbole "no eastern front." ITTL, Germans capture fuel, have avoided major material losses of OTL in eastern front, and their overall soldier quality on the western front is improved enough that they can enjoy local superiority. Also, the Wallies are one month behind (July D Day) which means their logistical situation is 1 month retarded.
Which is why holding the allies on the western side plays a significant role in this tl, though the Rhur would be largely leveled by artillery, so much of the heavy equipment would be probably sent to Silesia.