Pro German TLs

Eurofed

Banned
When I say "better" I pretty much mean "looks bigger on the map", this is, as you say, not a good indicator of doing better, the FRG today is far better for Germany than a victorious Nazi one of course. But to be honest most people on these boards equate more territory with better.

Theoretically true of course, but the OP talked about Germany not being a "downtrodden nation", which implied his criteria for success was power, not having a nice regime in charge. That's why I assumed Naziwanks would qualify, at least ones where "evil but smart" Nazis are in charge that don't screw themselves into failure, as in the TL by Onkel Willie and in mine (although I placed them last in my list, since we can all agree that a civil, sane Kaiserreich or unified HRE superpower is leagues better).
 
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Eurofed

Banned
A Germany that somehow survives WWII (or even wins it; as ASB as that might sound) but is still ruled by fascists, no matter the kind, is still worse off than an occupied Germany. At least in my book.

This statement is excessively broad. Modern Spain and Portugal demonstrably did not get in worse long-term shape than modern Germany and Italy for having got 30 extra years and a "natural" domestic-driven collapse of their fascist regimes. As such, I argue that a Germany with a "sane" fascist regime (say guys like Speer and Manstein instead of Himmler and the SS loonies) in charge for an extra generation after the 1940s, that can keep its 1938 borders, avoid WWII destruction, brutal Soviet occupation, Cold War division, the ethnic cleansing in Eastern Germany and the Sudetenland, got a better bargain than OTL.
 
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Grey Wolf

Donor
Eleventh Hour and its sequels (Satan's Children etc) would qualify - Kissinger gets to command an Imperial German ballistic missile submarine and launch a strike agaiinst the USA

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
This statement is excessively broad.

Excessively broad? Ha. Those words from you, of all people?

Oh well. Never mind. Getting into an argument with you over the benefits and drawbacks of a fascist Germany would require more time and effort than I can be bothered to expend.

Let’s just say you are right in so far as you could construct a scenario in which an occupation is worse than a fascist leadership. Congrats. My “excessively” broad statement has been refuted. How could I not consider technically possible but absurd or implausible developments? Woe is me; I hang my head in shame.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Let’s just say you are right in so far as you could construct a scenario in which an occupation is worse than a fascist leadership. Congrats. My “excessively” broad statement has been refuted. How could I not consider technically possible but absurd or implausible developments? Woe is me; I hang my head in shame.

There is nothing "absurd or implausible" about a sane authoritarian-fascist 1930s Germany, with the right PoD. My "Phony War, Short War" TL develops just such a scenario, starting with the death of Hitler, Hess, and Goring in the Nov. 8, 1939 bombing. Himmler and the SS network are wiped out by the army in the succession power struggle, an army junta takes over. They were men that wanted to recover the territories that Germany had lost to Poland in 1919, but had no interest in pursuing the grandiose Lebensraum plans of Hitler once he's dead, much less at the price of a war with the Entente or the USSR. They would be interested in making a real compromise peace with the West, and Chamberlain would be interested, too, once Hitler is out of the way. They would also leave the USSR alone if it leaves them alone. A compromise peace which leaves Germany with the Sudetenland, Danzig, Upper Silesia, and the Corridor, and restores the independence of Czechia and Poland, which both sides would find liveable, is quite feasible.

For this PoD to work it takes nothing more than a clear night in Berlin the day of the assassination, so Hitler decides to leave Munich by plane, and he's in the middle of his speech, his main cronies at his side, when the bomb goes off.
 
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Grey Wolf

Donor
Now I am puzzled - there are TLs where Germany is a downtrodden nation here? :confused:

Well it usually happens, I think, after they have attained glory first.

In my Nazi Trilogy (or whatever it was!) they did well in conquering Britain, Iceland, Greenland, then got nuked by the USA and occupied, so were pretty damn down-trodden by then.

Of course, things began to get interesting as Hitler's son appeared on the scene...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
As far as I am concerned, the best fate of Germany in the 20th century would be a surviving Weimar, followed by a surviving reformed (i.e. democratic) Kaiserreich.
 
As far as I am concerned, the best fate of Germany in the 20th century would be a surviving Weimar, followed by a surviving reformed (i.e. democratic) Kaiserreich.

Yep. A Shift in Priorities creates a pretty liberal Kaiserreich that even though with its own share of skeletons in its closet still manages to be a pretty nice place, at least compared to the USA.
 

Eurofed

Banned
As far as I am concerned, the best fate of Germany in the 20th century would be a surviving Weimar, followed by a surviving reformed (i.e. democratic) Kaiserreich.

I'd broadly agree, except I'd swap your order: IMO the best fate of Germany (and Europe) in the 20th century is a surviving Kaiserreich reformed to full democracy, followed by a surviving Weimar. Not because I'm an ardent monarchist, but because the European order created by a victorious democratic Kaiserreich would be far superior to the Versailles one, even if the latter is made more stable by a surviving Weimar.
 
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Now I am puzzled - there are TLs where Germany is a downtrodden nation here? :confused:
Well, depending on whether 'here' is seen as After 1900 or AH.com in general, there at least are TLs where Germany is not united. Being splintered across a two-digit number of states is fairly pointless if most of them can't even aim for universalism anyway.
 
I'd broadly agree, except I'd swap your order: IMO the best fate of Germany (and Europe) in the 20th century is a surviving Kaiserreich reformed to full democracy, followed by a surviving Weimar. Not because I'm an ardent monarchist, but because the European order created by a victorious democratic Kaiserreich would be far superior to the Versailles one, even if the latter is made more stable by a surviving Weimar.

I've got a much better idea, and it doesn't involve Germany controlling the affairs of all of Europe. It's called a Democratic Kaiserreich, but without a WW1 or WW2. (Although it would be even better without a Kaiser)
 
I've got a much better idea, and it doesn't involve Germany controlling the affairs of all of Europe. It's called a Democratic Kaiserreich, but without a WW1 or WW2. (Although it would be even better without a Kaiser)

Depends on said Kaiser. If we get a Frederick III type over a Wilhelm II type...
 
The problem with OTL German history is there is a specific 12-year period where Germany doing well means bad stuff for Slavs and Jews in particular and everybody else on the planet if things go too well for it. As it is that specific 12-year period has far too many people that go out of their way to make it successful but scream implausibility when people try to do that for the *other* 20th Century totalitarianism.
 
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