Pro Fide, Lege et Rige: The Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth Survives
- Thread starter KnightofTempest
- Start date
If you don't like the story don't read it. Why you are popping in just to bash the story I don't know, but I'd thank you to leave if that is all you are doing. It is very rude. I don't know why people get so worked up about a story on the internet. . .really.
The story still works from a literary standpoint but you are getting hung up on historical quibbles before you even have a chance to see what I'm doing about them. I call that bashing.
I have stuff planned for the Sejm that will influence events. I can't say what without spoilers for a major story event.
IMO any Poland PoD in Wettin times is placing terminally ill patient on life support.
The latest PLC can be saved with minimum handwavium dose - successful internal politics of Wladyslaw IV, preferably with his son not dying. That's maybe the most late period when you can do something without launching reactive ASBs from steam-powered catapult and/or massively tweaking with Polish neighbors.
Jan Sobieski - less life support, more struggling - but possible. In A et D I tried just this, though applying a bit of handwavium, with a highly pro-Polish regime in Russia and Poles successfully securing Moldavia and Yedisan...pardon, New Sarmathia (here be SPOILER for future plans), which gives a boost to economy.
The economic situation in post-Deluge PLC was crap, and precisely this resulted in Liberum Veto travesty beyond recognition (even at beginning of 17th century there were still limitations on it) - too many noble men with no source of reliable income apart from selling their votes to highest bidder. Democracy with impoverished electorate is prone to excesses of corruption, as can be seen here pretty clearly.
But if the topicstarter insists his readers to ignore plausibility "for sake of good read" let it be. Hope I didn't sound rude or anything, but point of non-return is already passed by this particular reign.
The latest PLC can be saved with minimum handwavium dose - successful internal politics of Wladyslaw IV, preferably with his son not dying. That's maybe the most late period when you can do something without launching reactive ASBs from steam-powered catapult and/or massively tweaking with Polish neighbors.
Jan Sobieski - less life support, more struggling - but possible. In A et D I tried just this, though applying a bit of handwavium, with a highly pro-Polish regime in Russia and Poles successfully securing Moldavia and Yedisan...pardon, New Sarmathia (here be SPOILER for future plans), which gives a boost to economy.
The economic situation in post-Deluge PLC was crap, and precisely this resulted in Liberum Veto travesty beyond recognition (even at beginning of 17th century there were still limitations on it) - too many noble men with no source of reliable income apart from selling their votes to highest bidder. Democracy with impoverished electorate is prone to excesses of corruption, as can be seen here pretty clearly.
But if the topicstarter insists his readers to ignore plausibility "for sake of good read" let it be. Hope I didn't sound rude or anything, but point of non-return is already passed by this particular reign.
Last edited:
The Sejm won't be a problem beyond 1703. I can't say anything else without spoiling a major story event. Let's just say the war is going to take it's toll.
I'd appreciate it if you in the future people don't ask about the Sejm, I cannot say anything without spoiling a massive story event that is going to happen in five, maybe six more updates.
Chapter 6:The Battle of Klissow
As the day dawned on September 12th 1701, the Commonwealth Army found itself staring out at the Swedish Army from beyond their prepared positions. The Commonwealth troops had anchored their line on a river off to their left, and were dug in and well rested. The Swedes had rested the night nearby and still had to march to the battlefield early in the morning. As the two forces stared at each other, Karl XII put his plan into play. He thought to envelop the Commonwealth forces through a bold assault along the river. The call was given to advance, and so the Swedes did.
They fired their muskets, firing volley into the commonwealth line, who fired back as best they were able, however the Swedes were clearly better organized, and got the better of the Commonwealth forces in the initial exchange. Soon the Swedes were marching up the slope of an embankment, trying to break the commonwealth forces with a charge. Swords flashed, bayonets stabbed, musket stocks bludgeoned, and blood spilled, but the Commonwealth Forces Held, and the Swedish assault bounced when a pistol bullet found the throat of the Commander of the Assault, the Duke of Holstein-Gottorp.
A Counterattack was launched by the Polish Cavalry under Lubomirski, and as they charged along the Swedish Left, firing pistols into the mass before drawing Sabres, Lubomirski knew he could beat the Swedes if he just followed his instincts. Unfortunately, at some point during the firing of pistols, slashing of sabres and screams of dying men and horses, Lubomirski's Charge ran out of Steam and they had to return to their place on the Right Flank or face getting bogged down in the mass of Swedish Troops and possibly killed.
Lubomirski was in ultimate command of the troops on the right flank, and this included the infantry. So when one of his Aides, a Young Czartorski asked if they should pull out to try their luck elsewhere, Lubomirski made a decision. "No, while the Cavalry may try their luck on the Swedish supply lines, the Infantry will most assuredly be caught in a vice were we to leave. I am responsible for this entire flank, not just the cavalry, I will not have it said that my callow decisions caused a rout." And So Lubomirski and his cavalry Stayed.
As the Day wore on, and Swedish Casualties began to mount, Karl XII was infuriated. His grand envelopment strategy was going nowhere because the Poles refused to Give ground, whoever was leading them must surely be a good commander. Karl was pondering sending an assault through the marshlands to the west to try and outflank the Commonwealth Forces when the trumpets blared in the distance. Coming up the road to reinforce the Commonwealth Army was a Saxon Army of around 8,000 men, or so Karl Judged from his spyglass. He sighed, so much for his decisive engagement. He would have to try and catch the Commonwealth Army some other time. Screening his withdrawal with his cavalry, Karl and the Swedes retreated to regroup. Klissow would be the last battle of 1701, with naught but skirmishes and maneuver before the Armies settled down to winter quarters. It would prove prophetic for the type of war that would be seen in 1702.
As the day dawned on September 12th 1701, the Commonwealth Army found itself staring out at the Swedish Army from beyond their prepared positions. The Commonwealth troops had anchored their line on a river off to their left, and were dug in and well rested. The Swedes had rested the night nearby and still had to march to the battlefield early in the morning. As the two forces stared at each other, Karl XII put his plan into play. He thought to envelop the Commonwealth forces through a bold assault along the river. The call was given to advance, and so the Swedes did.
They fired their muskets, firing volley into the commonwealth line, who fired back as best they were able, however the Swedes were clearly better organized, and got the better of the Commonwealth forces in the initial exchange. Soon the Swedes were marching up the slope of an embankment, trying to break the commonwealth forces with a charge. Swords flashed, bayonets stabbed, musket stocks bludgeoned, and blood spilled, but the Commonwealth Forces Held, and the Swedish assault bounced when a pistol bullet found the throat of the Commander of the Assault, the Duke of Holstein-Gottorp.
A Counterattack was launched by the Polish Cavalry under Lubomirski, and as they charged along the Swedish Left, firing pistols into the mass before drawing Sabres, Lubomirski knew he could beat the Swedes if he just followed his instincts. Unfortunately, at some point during the firing of pistols, slashing of sabres and screams of dying men and horses, Lubomirski's Charge ran out of Steam and they had to return to their place on the Right Flank or face getting bogged down in the mass of Swedish Troops and possibly killed.
Lubomirski was in ultimate command of the troops on the right flank, and this included the infantry. So when one of his Aides, a Young Czartorski asked if they should pull out to try their luck elsewhere, Lubomirski made a decision. "No, while the Cavalry may try their luck on the Swedish supply lines, the Infantry will most assuredly be caught in a vice were we to leave. I am responsible for this entire flank, not just the cavalry, I will not have it said that my callow decisions caused a rout." And So Lubomirski and his cavalry Stayed.
As the Day wore on, and Swedish Casualties began to mount, Karl XII was infuriated. His grand envelopment strategy was going nowhere because the Poles refused to Give ground, whoever was leading them must surely be a good commander. Karl was pondering sending an assault through the marshlands to the west to try and outflank the Commonwealth Forces when the trumpets blared in the distance. Coming up the road to reinforce the Commonwealth Army was a Saxon Army of around 8,000 men, or so Karl Judged from his spyglass. He sighed, so much for his decisive engagement. He would have to try and catch the Commonwealth Army some other time. Screening his withdrawal with his cavalry, Karl and the Swedes retreated to regroup. Klissow would be the last battle of 1701, with naught but skirmishes and maneuver before the Armies settled down to winter quarters. It would prove prophetic for the type of war that would be seen in 1702.
Actually, this board HAS other (sub)fora with looser rules. Writer's Forum and ASB spring to mind. If you're not concerned with plausibilty, but just to write a story, it could go one of those places. If it's here, people WILL call you on implausibility. This may be AH but it's more Alternate HISTORY than ALTERNATE History.
Come on, why so harsh?
I agree though, that it won't be easy and I expect something special- more than "great speech arousing national feelings in everybody present, rallying nation to fight". But Wettin's position isn't critical for one reason- he's got Saxony, he can milk as much as he wishes (kind of). If he massacres nobles (I guess that's what OP plans), he can keep going- and lose IMO. But on polish history board we discussed sejm massacre with something extra, making August's position stronger in almost all possible ways. But let's see what author has in mind...BTW- as much as I agree that at this point Commonwealth was a "walking dead", I'd like to note that this walking dead could go on like this for quite some time- apart from Prussia, no one's business was in destroying it- for Austria it was political playground allowing to clash with Russia in non- military ways (and absorbing it too), while for Russia it was potential protectorate, which could have field some 200k soldiers at the end of its life. Would Polish "patriots" (starting with Bar confederacy) not start stupid uprisings or experiments, most likely Commonwealth would finally stabilize itself, with- as much as it may sound implausible- Russian "help" (Sejm Czaplica, anyone?
) and during Napoleon campaigns... Everything is possible. Small chance for dismantling it, as it'd benefit Russia only at this point, most likely PLC would end as another "ally" of Napoleon then.Come on, why so harsh?
BTW- as much as I agree that at this point Commonwealth was a "walking dead", I'd like to note that this walking dead could go on like this for quite some time- apart from Prussia, no one's business was in destroying it- for Austria it was political playground allowing to clash with Russia in non- military ways (and absorbing it too), while for Russia it was potential protectorate, which could have field some 200k soldiers at the end of its life. Would Polish "patriots" (starting with Bar confederacy) not start stupid uprisings or experiments, most likely Commonwealth would finally stabilize itself, with- as much as it may sound implausible- Russian "help" (Sejm Czaplica, anyone?
It's not Wettin that is going to massacre the Sejm. Consider that IOTL Karl XII considered a decapitation strike on the Sejm and Commonwealth Government, but abandoned that plan in favor of destroying Commonwealth Military Might in decisive engagements. ITTL he has yet to gain his decisive engagement. . .
Pretty much what I had in mind, but a bit more blunt. Well, ok, we shall see. But killing off head nobles should cause quite a stir and help August to "avenge" them.
Chapter 7: 1701 Elsewhere and the Winter
As both the Commonwealth and Sweden settled in for winter camps, developments were proceeding apace in Russia. As Karl XII was chasing after a decisive engagement in the Commonwealth, Tsar Peter had led an expedition with his newly reformed troops into Ingria in an attempt to drive the Swedish out. Peter had led his troops at the Battle of Vyborg in an attempt to destroy the Swedish Garrison in Ingria and deal a harsh blow to Swedish power. Unfortunately, the Swedes would hold Viborg with the Aid of the Archipelago Navy, which landed 3,000 Swedish Marines behind the Russian Siege Lines and allowed the Garrison to sally and drive the Russians out of Ingria.
As the Russian Reformed Army was defeated by Swedish Combined Arms, Peter decided that further refinements to the Russian Army were needed. The Boyars on the other hand, felt that with the Russian Reformed Army's Defeat, that they should return to the older ways of fighting wars. This dispute would embroil Moscow for much of the Winter.
Meanwhile, the War of the Spanish Succession engulfed the rest of Europe into seeking to seat their candidate on the throne of Spain. Battle lines were drawn in Spain, the Germanies, and the Italian states. Whether a Bourbon or a Hapsburg would take the Throne of Spain is an issue that will be decided over the next 14 years by force of arms.
As Winter sets in, Augustus uses this time to further drill his Saxon troops in the Reforms, even if the commonwealth troops have not been allowed to take part by the Sejm. By the end of winter, Augustus will have an army of 15,000 Saxon Troops in his reformed army. The difference in performance between the Reformed Saxon Army and the Commonwealth Army will become apparent in the years to come.
Karl XII on the other hand has been frustrated in his attempts to force a decisive engagement with the Poles and Saxons. He managed to preserve his army by withdrawing at Klissow, but he could not destroy the Commonwealth Army before the Saxon reinforcements arrived. There was another inconclusive battle at Pultusk before winter quarters needed to be dug, but Pultusk was an entirely cavalry battle, and the Commonwealth Cavalry is a very high quality force, they were able to escape Karl's Trap with only 150 or so casualties to Karl's 80. Karl decided that he needed to train his cavalry further and that the rest of November would be used for cavalry maneuvers and training before finally settling in for the winter.
When Spring of 1702 rolled around Augustus is in a much better position than he would have been otherwise, thanks to Von Steinau and Lubomirski's actions at Klissow and Pultusk. Karl would not be an easy enemy to defeat, but Augustus had faith in his commanders and in his reforms, and as Spring Dawns on 1702, Augustus was confident he could continue his string of tactical victories until the Russians could get their act together.
As both the Commonwealth and Sweden settled in for winter camps, developments were proceeding apace in Russia. As Karl XII was chasing after a decisive engagement in the Commonwealth, Tsar Peter had led an expedition with his newly reformed troops into Ingria in an attempt to drive the Swedish out. Peter had led his troops at the Battle of Vyborg in an attempt to destroy the Swedish Garrison in Ingria and deal a harsh blow to Swedish power. Unfortunately, the Swedes would hold Viborg with the Aid of the Archipelago Navy, which landed 3,000 Swedish Marines behind the Russian Siege Lines and allowed the Garrison to sally and drive the Russians out of Ingria.
As the Russian Reformed Army was defeated by Swedish Combined Arms, Peter decided that further refinements to the Russian Army were needed. The Boyars on the other hand, felt that with the Russian Reformed Army's Defeat, that they should return to the older ways of fighting wars. This dispute would embroil Moscow for much of the Winter.
Meanwhile, the War of the Spanish Succession engulfed the rest of Europe into seeking to seat their candidate on the throne of Spain. Battle lines were drawn in Spain, the Germanies, and the Italian states. Whether a Bourbon or a Hapsburg would take the Throne of Spain is an issue that will be decided over the next 14 years by force of arms.
As Winter sets in, Augustus uses this time to further drill his Saxon troops in the Reforms, even if the commonwealth troops have not been allowed to take part by the Sejm. By the end of winter, Augustus will have an army of 15,000 Saxon Troops in his reformed army. The difference in performance between the Reformed Saxon Army and the Commonwealth Army will become apparent in the years to come.
Karl XII on the other hand has been frustrated in his attempts to force a decisive engagement with the Poles and Saxons. He managed to preserve his army by withdrawing at Klissow, but he could not destroy the Commonwealth Army before the Saxon reinforcements arrived. There was another inconclusive battle at Pultusk before winter quarters needed to be dug, but Pultusk was an entirely cavalry battle, and the Commonwealth Cavalry is a very high quality force, they were able to escape Karl's Trap with only 150 or so casualties to Karl's 80. Karl decided that he needed to train his cavalry further and that the rest of November would be used for cavalry maneuvers and training before finally settling in for the winter.
When Spring of 1702 rolled around Augustus is in a much better position than he would have been otherwise, thanks to Von Steinau and Lubomirski's actions at Klissow and Pultusk. Karl would not be an easy enemy to defeat, but Augustus had faith in his commanders and in his reforms, and as Spring Dawns on 1702, Augustus was confident he could continue his string of tactical victories until the Russians could get their act together.
