Preferred Allied ATL aircraft versus Japan (Ki-27 & Ki43)

[merlin]

In an ATL world where European Empires were better defended with 'Colonial Fighters' - which one does best against Japanese Army Aircraft?

Fokker D.XX1 designed with the RNIA use in mind. Powered initially by a 645 h.p. Mercury engine, and later by the 830h.p. version. I suspect it will need more power to be viable.

Koolhoven F.K.58 although 'Dutch' was ordered for French colonial use in Indo-China. By the same designer as the Fokker aircraft, 1,080 h.p. engine so faster, but poorer armament.

Gloster F.5/34 specified originally as Colonial Fighter, so could be out east. Comments could be made relative to a choice of engines - 840 h.p. or 905 h.p. Mercury, Alvis Pelides Major, or P & W 1830.

Gloster Gladiator - final thought, if Indian Air Force expanded earlier and was given the Glad's to start with, would they suffer, or could they cope?

Tempted to do it as a 'Poll' but think I'll keep it open.

 

[Admiral Beez]

In an ATL world where European Empires were better defended with 'Colonial Fighters' - which one does best against Japanese Army Aircraft?

Gloster Gladiator was never a colonial fighter. It was the RAF and FAA's front line fighter.

Best colonial fighter, whatever that term means, for the British is the Hawker Hurricane. The Hurricane served extensively in India, Burma and (albeit arriving too late to matter via HMS Indomitable) Malaya against the Japanese. https://pacificeagles.net/hawker-hurricane/

Here is a pic of Hurricanes at Singapore in Jan 1942, from http://www.combinedfleet.com/Singapore.htm

 

[jsb]

Why not Curtiss P-40 Warhawk?

Say a larger AVG based from Singapore using GB airfields to uncrate and train for the flying north to be useed in China, they then just happen to be available to defend in dec 41...

 

[Just Leo]

The Gloster Gladiator earned its title as colonial fighter by being inferior to F.5/34 fighters that were so designated, and having the same engine. It further earned the title by being front line in North Africa and the Med, where second rate fighters were sent, and on Malta, where FAA rejects were dumped.

Further American colonial fighters, not titled as such, are the Seversky fighters, the Hawk 75, the PW-21/B, the Vultee P-66, and Buffalo.

A Japanese fighter not mentioned is the Ki.44 Shoki, in small numbers, and too fast to be popular.

 

[merlin]

I'm well aware that OTL, the Hurricane was probably the main fighter for the RAF in SE Asia, but that was no part of the question - though maybe I should have put 'which one of these'!
Just as Glad's were used - with some success - in the early part of the Desert War, if the RAF 'were better defended' and had better aircraft available to them, seems reasonably to suppose that surplus aircraft would be passed down the line that is such an ATL world the Indian Air Force gets the Glad's - in the same way that OTL the SAAF was in East Africa using Gauntlets.

In OTL the Dutch managed not very well with a mis-mash of various US aircraft, would they have fared any better, with their own aircraft if better prepared?
I believe the RAF's original spec. for a 'Colonial Fighter' included a radial engine - hence the Gloster, Bristol, Vickers, and Martin-Baker were all radials!

 

[Just Leo]

The Martin Baker MB2 was powered by a Napier Dagger H-24 air-cooled engine, per spec which did not specify radial, but did specify air-cooled.

The Dutch did poorly because they were poorly prepared in all aspects to resist aerial attacks, losing most aircraft on the ground.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I'm well aware that OTL, the Hurricane was probably the main fighter for the RAF in SE Asia, but that was no part of the question

There were only two questions in the OP; this

In an ATL world where European Empires were better defended with 'Colonial Fighters' - which one does best against Japanese Army Aircraft?

This question does not preclude the Hurricane from consideration.

And this..

Gloster Gladiator - final thought, if Indian Air Force expanded earlier and was given the Glad's to start with, would they suffer, or could they cope?

An interesting query re. the Gladiator, but again this doesn't exclude the Hurricane from the topic.

 

[marathag]

The P-36 was as fast, nearly as maneuverable as the Oscar, better armed and more rugged and better controls at high speed. It also had slightly less Climb from more standard equipment, like self starter and better radio.
It never really got what it needed, a two stage supercharger, like the Oscar received in 1942

 

[merlin]

Whoa, next time I'll try and make it explicit rather than implied. Surprised, not more comments, but hey ho, just means more freedom to make my own suppositions.

 

[Just Leo]

It never really got what it needed, a two stage supercharger, like the Oscar received in 1942

Do you have a real source for this information? Dyslexia regarding the difference between two-stage and two-speed is not at all uncommon. I share a belief that the P-36 remained unfairly undeveloped, regarding R-1830 two-stage engines and XP-42 cowling/spinner modifications.

 

[Just Leo]

hey ho, just means more freedom to make my own suppositions.

I didn't realize that your freedom was in any way impaired before. Please suppose.

 

[mack8]

The P-36 was as fast, nearly as maneuverable as the Oscar, better armed and more rugged and better controls at high speed. It also had slightly less Climb from more standard equipment, like self starter and better radio.
It never really got what it needed, a two stage supercharger, like the Oscar received in 1942

Just to correct something, the Ki-43-II did not have a two-STAGE supercharger for it's Ha-115 engine, but a single stage two-SPEED one. As to the topic, from what i can read in the japanese POV the toughest opponents for the Ki-43 in early 1942 were considered to be the Hurricane and P-40.

 

[jsb]

The problem is what is a 'Colonial Fighters' ?

In OTL the best is simply the closest to the current state of the art fighter in use in Europe, so its simply a matter of what is the lest worse fighter than one of the western powers is willing to spare from the west?

Almost certainly the the Hurricane or P-40, as GB and USA have the most 'spare' capacity to send west v Dutch or French.

 

[Just Leo]

AM Spec F.5/34 was for a colonial fighter, by any name. Call it tropicalized if you wish. Tropicalized Hurricanes were colonial fighters when they became obsolete in 1941, and Spitfire Vbs in 1943.

 

[marathag]

Do you have a real source for this information? Dyslexia regarding the difference between two-stage and two-speed is not at all uncommon. I share a belief that the P-36 remained unfairly undeveloped, regarding R-1830 two-stage engines and XP-42 cowling/spinner modifications.

Nakajima Sakae HA-25 was single speed, single stage, 970HP. The Ki-43II had the HA-115 Two Speed unit.
Had the P-36 got the P&W R1830-76(as used in F4F-3) with two-stage, two speed unit, its altitude difficulties would have been solved.

 

[tomo pauk]

The V-1710 + P-36 = win vs. Nate/Oscar. Obvoiusly, I'm talking about the P-40 here.

 

[marathag]

The V-1710 + P-36 = win vs. Nate/Oscar. Obvoiusly, I'm talking about the P-40 here.

For the P-40B/C, somewhat, but it was noted as being faster than the P-36, but didn't handle as well

Starting with the D model, it was bloating up, losing performance despite more HP.

 

[Just Leo]

Handling on P-40 was improved in late models with extended tail, and the -76 engine came late with slow production build-up, although sooner than revised cowling contours. Performance on P-40E and beyond compared to P-40B/C depends on the figures you go by, but I still prefer the B/C on looks.

 

[tomo pauk]

Hundreds ad hundreds of pounds of added weight will take it's toll on performance, P-40 to P-40D.

For the P-40B/C, somewhat, but it was noted as being faster than the P-36, but didn't handle as well
Starting with the D model, it was bloating up, losing performance despite more HP.

The P-40 rolled even faster than P-36 above 190 mph indicated air speed, actually it was the best 'roller' among the fighters until the Fw 190 showed up (discounting Soviet fighters for now, that I'm not aware of posted dana re. rate of roll). The P-40 gained a lots of weight and barely enough of extra HP, so indeed performance wen't behind what newer and more improved fighters were offering.
P-36 handled well not just because Curtiss designers & engineers did a good job, it was good in that when the armament installed was pitiful, no protection for fuel tanks, basic if any protection for pilot, not using the fuselage fuel tank when combat is expected, and without necessary airframe strenthening that added weight.
The V12 engine (V-1710 in this case) will allow for considerable overboost, 60-67-70 in Hg at low altitudes (1600-1700 HP), unlike the R-1830.

 

[yulzari]

How about the Gloster Gladiator production tooling etc. being shipped out to India and Bristol Mercuries or Pegasus being made in India (after all Sweden, Finland and Poland could make Mercuries and Pegasus)? Taking the export of obsolete production lines further, ship out the Bristol Bombay line too. A bomber/transport could make support or evacuation possible in Burma from the beginning. 6 x .303 or 2x Vickers 0.5 guns would be adequate for the KI27/43.