Preferred Allied ATL aircraft versus Japan (Ki-27 & Ki43)

Hurricane and Buffalo struggled agaist the Ki-43, going for an even more obsolete fighter will represent an own goal.
That is before we consider how inadequate the biplane fighter is to kill what Ki 27/43 will be escorting many times, namely the japanese bombers.
 
The Gladiator is midway between the Ki27 and 43 in weight and with a Pegasus and VP prop it can compete in climb rates (if Malta experience is correct). The firepower is better than the KI27 and on a par with the KI43. Certainly somewhat slower in top speed but coped with the Italians.

Not the best performing choice I grant but a workable one for the first six months at least and I offered it as a package that would establish an aero industry in India that could add to the Commonwealth production instead of drawing from OTL UK production or US exports. Either the new works could go over to Hurricane production in 1942/3 or use the Gladiators as close support from small fields closer to the front lines. Even from within Burma as part of air landed brigades with Bombay support in supply as the Bombays can get into fields that Dakotas could not. Get it going early and you can equip Malaya and the Dutch in addition to the OTL fighters. The Lysander could carry 2 x 250lb bombs on it's stub racks and those would do no good at all to Japanese troopships off Malaya and DEI. Hardly Typhoon or Firefly territory but starting fires on troopships is nearly as good as letting in water. They have to stand more chance than Vildebeests in 1942.

The key point is that this route gives you a whole extra industrial local base of proven designs without greatly impinging upon British production and shipping and could continue in the close support and tactical transport roles after better fighters are shipped in or give you a base to make the better fighters later on. Belgium and Yugoslavia managed Hurricane production.
 
From BoB the British learned several things. One was that aircraft laying on the ground are of no use if there is no trained pilots around. Having a trained pilot operating an obsolete aircraft (or tank) is an own goal, gets the good men killed for next to no return. Britain and Commonwealth don't need to out-produce the Axis any more than they did in OTL, they need quality aircraft instead. Sending Lysanders against Ki 27/43 is again sending the good men to die, in the vein of sending Battles against Bf 109s, Devastators against Zeroes, or operating Blenheims in 1941-43.

Mercury and Pegasus were fine engines in the 1930s. Hoping they will stack well in 1942 against a decent foe is rather idealistic proposal.
 
Tomo I agree that first class aeroplanes are the best choice, BTW I was referring to the Lysander with the Mercury/Perseus for it's bomb load. Not using Lysanders. The bombs would be on Gladiators. However the best is ever the enemy of the (fairly) good. I would prefer to have Malaya, Burma and the DEI stuffed full of Spitfires but it wasn't going to happen.

There is no reason why the Empire scheme for training pilots could not be expanded with Indian and/or Australian built trainers teaching Indian aircrew as a parallel scheme. I see this as a whole package to make the Far East self sufficient in air power and be able to support the Middle East. A better performing choice would be a Hurricane production line on the Canadian/Yugoslavian/Belgian model. Perhaps some going to Australia and New Zealand? The Gladiator production line is simply one which is existing and being made obsolete (with good reason). I suspect that making Merlins might be a step too far in India but we know that other nations from Italy to Finland did make Mercuries and Pegasus so that suggests that Indian made ones might be feasible.

In 1941 Britain was securing itself from an invasion, maintaining a global maritime supply system, fighting a major campaign in North Africa, had just finished campaigns in the Middle East including against France, liberated East Africa and was sending supplies to the Soviet Union. Not to mention being flat broke. The gamble was being taken not to spend resources on a first class capability in the Far East as Britain was over committed everywhere else. My concept allows Britain to use the RIAF as it used the Indian Army. Independence for India was already a given. How and when was up in the air so that is no issue. It might even get the blessing of Sergeant Major Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi.
 
P-36 handled well not just because Curtiss designers & engineers did a good job, it was good in that when the armament installed was pitiful, no protection for fuel tanks, basic if any protection for pilot, not using the fuselage fuel tank when combat is expected, and without necessary airframe strenthening that added weight.
The V12 engine (V-1710 in this case) will allow for considerable overboost, 60-67-70 in Hg at low altitudes (1600-1700 HP), unlike the R-1830.

The P-36 really was an American Oscar, but far better armament than the Ki-43 I, having .30 wing and .50 cowl guns. P-36 held the world dive speed record, tested for the French Hawk-75 order. It was far more robust, didn't have the wing collapse problem the Oscar had. Curtiss Model 75 had optional armored seatback offered.

But the Hawk 75 and Allison powered Model 81 could be tweaked in very high maneuvers, so Curtiss made the strong structure even more so. It got so heavy it got harder to pull those really high Gee moves.
 
pegasusglad.png

This is what a Pegasus-powered Glad looks like. It's actually .3% bigger than pictured but I can't do decimals.

The establishment of Indian production could be located in Bangalore, where HAL is located, usurping the efforts of William Pawley and some Indian investors from Mysore. It will also require the importation of considerable machinery and tooling, probably from the US.
 
The P-36 really was an American Oscar, but far better armament than the Ki-43 I, having .30 wing and .50 cowl guns. P-36 held the world dive speed record, tested for the French Hawk-75 order. It was far more robust, didn't have the wing collapse problem the Oscar had. Curtiss Model 75 had optional armored seatback offered.

But the Hawk 75 and Allison powered Model 81 could be tweaked in very high maneuvers, so Curtiss made the strong structure even more so. It got so heavy it got harder to pull those really high Gee moves.

My favorite weapon set-up for the P-36 for this thread would've been the 6x .30s in the wing - not too heavy, but with excellent total RoF, and more than enough firepower for 1942. The heavy weight of the P-40 vs. the Spitfire for example was every bit a consequence of heavier consumables carried, as it was because of it's heavier structure, like the 5-spar wing for example.
OTOH - while the P-36 could indeed be named as the American Oscar, the P-40B could be named the American Bf-109E-7, but with excellent rate of roll :)
 
Thank you Leo for the illustration of a Pegasus Gladiator. Any chance of one using a Wellington Cowling? I would imagine that the conversion would use a more up to date cowling than the Gladiators. The Long chord Wellesley cowling also gives us a clue.
z.jpeg
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How about Arsenal VG-50. The Allison engine prototype crashed and the French had no money to replace it. Would've been ready in 1940 and have quite a bit of speed advantage over anything Japanese at the time.
 
How about Arsenal VG-50. The Allison engine prototype crashed and the French had no money to replace it. Would've been ready in 1940 and have quite a bit of speed advantage over anything Japanese at the time.
The Allison-powered VG-32 was captured by the Germans two weeks before the scheduled first flight, and the VG-50 was a proposal.
 
The Bristol 146 has always been a little favourite of mine. Very similar performance to an early 1942 KI 43 and supposedly similar manouverability. It did 287mph on a 820hp Mercury but the production version was meant to have a 930hp Perseus or 965hp Pegasus and do 310mph.

world-of-warplanes-bristol-146-a.jpg
 
Regarding the P&W R1830-76, when was it available to be installed on operational aircraft?

1st delivery of a 2-stage supercharged R-1830 to Grumman happened in January 1939, in December of the same year the F4F-3 was delivered to the USN. P&W manufacured 98 of the R-1830-76 between May and December of 1940.
 
In 1941 Britain was securing itself from an invasion, maintaining a global maritime supply system, fighting a major campaign in North Africa, had just finished campaigns in the Middle East including against France, liberated East Africa and was sending supplies to the Soviet Union. Not to mention being flat broke. The gamble was being taken not to spend resources on a first class capability in the Far East as Britain was over committed everywhere else.
Given the above that I wrote, anything with spanking new performance is not going to be appearing in Malaya and Burma in 1941 but will barely get as far as the Middle East. Hurricanes and Buffalos were the best that was going to be spared. I note that the Hurricane was still serving over Burma in 1945.
 
Given the above that I wrote, anything with spanking new performance is not going to be appearing in Malaya and Burma in 1941 but will barely get as far as the Middle East. Hurricanes and Buffalos were the best that was going to be spared. I note that the Hurricane was still serving over Burma in 1945.

Okay, then let's give the Hurri some capability.
Beard radiator, less cluttered canopy, less draggy exhausts, keep it at 8 .303s, Merlin 45, perhaps clip the wings for better rate of roll. The OTL Hurricane IIa (Merlin XX, 8 .303s) was good for 340 mph, we'd save some weight here with Merlin 45 and closely-coupled raditor group, while earing few mph (ten?) with different radiator and exhausts. A better carb would've helped also.
 
Okay, then let's give the Hurri some capability.
Beard radiator, less cluttered canopy, less draggy exhausts, keep it at 8 .303s, Merlin 45, perhaps clip the wings for better rate of roll. The OTL Hurricane IIa (Merlin XX, 8 .303s) was good for 340 mph, we'd save some weight here with Merlin 45 and closely-coupled raditor group, while earing few mph (ten?) with different radiator and exhausts. A better carb would've helped also.

Let's simply say that the NPL wind tunnel gave Sir Sydney the correct data on the wing, and a better profile was selected. By the time the Hawk was being designed, Camm got data from 19 different wind tunnels in several different countries.
 
The Fokker DXXI and the Koolhaven FK 58 were mentioned. How would they have compared? Would they have made acceptable colonial aircraft if the ground infrastructure was sufficient?
 

Driftless

Donor
The Fokker DXXI and the Koolhaven FK 58 were mentioned. How would they have compared? Would they have made acceptable colonial aircraft if the ground infrastructure was sufficient?

While Dutch designed and built, I beleiveve the French originally intended to use the Koolhoven's for colonial service. The plan got crushed with the Fall of France in 1940. I think it's performance was so/so, but it's prime virtue was it's relative low cost.
 
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