Plausible Carthage Wank?

Uxi

The Seleucids went on an aggressive program of Hellenization and succeeded in getting a bunch of Jews to do that, up to and including offering sacrifice to Zeus, etc. Read up on the Maccabees.

Short story: In 167BC, Antiochus IV forbids traditional Jewish worship and sells the office of High Priest and when he's kicked out, saks the Temple and reinstalls him. Antiochus forbade Jewish worship (including circumcision and observation of the Sabbath). A certain Matthias refuses to go along with this or offer sacrifice to the Greek gods. In fact, he kills a Hellenistic Jew who tries to sacrifice in his place and starts a revolt. The Maccabees (in particular Matthias' son Judah) defeats the Seleucids and resanctifies the Temple, restoring traditional Jewish worship.

In 142BC, after a Seleucid civil war, the last son of Matthias recognizes the factions. In return, they were exempted from tribute and though they remained part of the Seleucid Empire, they had self rule and the Seleucids made no further attempt to forbid Jewish religion. By 139BC, they have treaties with Rome.
 

ZachScape

If they squat on Rome and then build the Great Wall. Hopefully Rome spawns somewhere, like in Austria Hungary. Barbarians then funnel into Rome, collapsing it, leaving the Mediterranean to Carthage.

It happens... (can anyone tell me when?)
 

Coyote Knight

Well in what I've written so far, some of those that refuse to submit to Carthaginian will have taken ships across the Adriatic into Illyria and Greece.

Edit: As for the Mediterranean, Carthage will have to share it with some bigger players. Keep in mind, with Rome out of the way, there is less of a struggle for places like Macedon to try and rebuild their empires.
 
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Coyote Knight

Bumped because I'm curious to hear what other people think of this idea.

Also, how likely is there to be a three-way alliance between Carthage, Macedon and the Seleucid Empire?
 

Lysandros Aikiedes

I can't think why they would need to ally for. They would probably partition their sphere of influence across the Mediterrean. Macedonia's primary interest is the subjugation of the Greek city-state leagues through militaristic or diplomatic strategies.

The Seleucids want to maintain or expand their territory in the Levant and Anatolian regions.

And Carthage needs to prevent the unification of the Numidians, secure their west Med island colonies and Iberian possessions, and maintain a sort of "protection racket" of the city-states of Megale Hellas/Magna Graecia.


The Kingdom of Epirus in modern Albania became diminished in territory from the 233's BCE. Phillip V or one of his successors could work on seizing control of the country, thus giving Macedonia access to the Adriatic Sea, which could potentially allow them an opportunity in invading Italy. That might put them in conflict with the proposed Carthaginian hegemony in southern Italy.
 

Tellus

Banned
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Somewhat offtopic, but I found this in a friend's photos from a trip to Tunisia. Apparently its Carthaginian ruins, or maybe she's gullible and its a tourist trap, but they look genuine. I need to go see this stuff someday.
 

Coyote Knight

Tellus said:
Somewhat offtopic, but I found this in a friend's photos from a trip to Tunisia. Apparently its Carthaginian ruins, or maybe she's gullible and its a tourist trap, but they look genuine. I need to go see this stuff someday.
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She's half-right.

The ruins are indeed Carthaginian, but they are the ruins of the Carthage that was built after the Third Punic War. In other words, them ruins be Roman.
 

Coyote Knight

Lysandros Aikiedes said:
I can't think why they would need to ally for. They would probably partition their sphere of influence across the Mediterrean. Macedonia's primary interest is the subjugation of the Greek city-state leagues through militaristic or diplomatic strategies.

The Seleucids want to maintain or expand their territory in the Levant and Anatolian regions.

And Carthage needs to prevent the unification of the Numidians, secure their west Med island colonies and Iberian possessions, and maintain a sort of "protection racket" of the city-states of Megale Hellas/Magna Graecia.


The Kingdom of Epirus in modern Albania became diminished in territory from the 233's BCE. Phillip V or one of his successors could work on seizing control of the country, thus giving Macedonia access to the Adriatic Sea, which could potentially allow them an opportunity in invading Italy. That might put them in conflict with the proposed Carthaginian hegemony in southern Italy.
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All three of them ally against Ptolemaic Egypt. As for Macedon, what would be/was their policy towards Cyprus? And I could see Macedon attempting to invade Italy, and I think the Carthaginians would say "leave the south and our protectorates alone, and we couldn't care less".
 

Lysandros Aikiedes

Canadian Federation said:
All three of them ally against Ptolemaic Egypt. As for Macedon, what would be/was their policy towards Cyprus? And I could see Macedon attempting to invade Italy, and I think the Carthaginians would say "leave the south and our protectorates alone, and we couldn't care less".
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Philip V wanted to secure Macedonia and to restore some of its past glory. The agreement he had with Antiochus III was that Philip would take Ptolemaic territory in southern Anatolia and the Aegean Islands. The island of Rhodes was a formidable naval power, and IIRC, an Egyptian ally. While the Hellenistic Kingdom of Pergamon in north-west Anatolia, then ruled by Attalus I, was the Seleucid Empire's main opponent in the peninsula. Macedonian expansion was a danger to both of them. Cyprus would have served as a base of naval operations to whomever held it.
 

Coyote Knight

Lysandros Aikiedes said:
Philip V wanted to secure Macedonia and to restore some of its past glory. The agreement he had with Antiochus III was that Philip would take Ptolemaic territory in southern Anatolia and the Aegean Islands. The island of Rhodes was a formidable naval power, and IIRC, an Egyptian ally. While the Hellenistic Kingdom of Pergamon in north-west Anatolia, then ruled by Attalus I, was the Seleucid Empire's main opponent in the peninsula. Macedonian expansion was a danger to both of them. Cyprus would have served as a base of naval operations to whomever held it.
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So Macedon takes the Islands and parts of Anatolia, the Seleucids take Pergamum and whoever is fastest takes Cyprus, is that it? :p
 

Coyote Knight

Can anyone here give me some suggestions about some good references about what Northern Europe and Britannia were like in the third century BC? I'm curious because I do want to expand on what the cultures of a Europe without Rome would be like in those areas.
 

Lysandros Aikiedes

Canadian Federation said:
Bump so that hopefully Lysandros will reply. :p
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According to Polybius the deal between Philip V and Antiochus was that Macedonia would obtain the Aegean Islands and Cyrene, while Antiochus gets Egypt and Cyprus, and presumably, Judea as well, which he did at least. At the time, Ptolemy V had ascended to the throne at the age of five.

You waited days just for my reply?:rolleyes:
 

Coyote Knight

Lysandros Aikiedes said:
According to Polybius the deal between Philip V and Antiochus was that Macedonia would obtain the Aegean Islands and Cyrene, while Antiochus gets Egypt and Cyprus, and presumably, Judea as well, which he did at least. At the time, Ptolemy V had ascended to the throne at the age of five.

You waited days just for my reply?:rolleyes:
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Alrighty then. And no, I didn't wait days just for your reply. This thread needs to go on for a few weeks before I can submit my timeline and I've been rather busy studying for my exams. :p
 
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