Plausible Carthage Wank?

[Coyote Knight]

Since my Western British Timeline is essentially wrapped up, I've always wanted to see what would've happened if Hannibal Barca had succeeded in sacking Rome and a possible resulting Carthage wank. So fellow AHers, please help me in my time of need by helping me with any bits of info you know about the ancient world (mine's a tad fuzzy pre-Roman Empire) or just suggestions about things that could possibly happen.

Any and all help is much appreciated.

 

[Mr.Wigglemunch]

Errrrmmmmmm the usual conclusion is that Europe would remain very Celtic. However, with Carthage's only enemy left being the Greek states it has pretty full reign over the western med, so you can see them rolling on with the assimilation of Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica before moving onwards and spreading to the coastlines. Also for the sake of a wank they start to spread slowly around the coast of Africa, maybe capturing Madeira and maybe discovering the Azores?

Anyway, what would make me happy is that Hannibal would be de-facto the greatest general in history

 

[NCW]

Delenda Est

Errrrmmmmmm the usual conclusion is that Europe would remain very Celtic.

I think that comes mainly from Poul Anderson's story "Delenda Est", in which he has Hannibal win the Second Punic War because Publius Cornelius Scipio and his son (Scipio Africanus) were killed at the Battle of Ticinus. It's possibly one of the most ambitious alt hist stories written as it describes the world more than 2000 years after the POD. The Celts dominate in Western Europe and North America while Lithuania (Littorn) is dominant in Eastern Europe. It does cheat somewhat in that nothing new is really introduced. Anderson removes Roman-Greek culture and Judeo-Christianity and lets the remaining cultures/religions fill the space provided.

Cheers,
Nigel.

 

[Coyote Knight]

Errrrmmmmmm the usual conclusion is that Europe would remain very Celtic. However, with Carthage's only enemy left being the Greek states it has pretty full reign over the western med, so you can see them rolling on with the assimilation of Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica before moving onwards and spreading to the coastlines. Also for the sake of a wank they start to spread slowly around the coast of Africa, maybe capturing Madeira and maybe discovering the Azores?

Anyway, what would make me happy is that Hannibal would be de-facto the greatest general in history

I had thought that the Celts, Gauls and German Tribes would've fought over most of europe while various Roman factions battle for control of the Italian Peninsula.

I also would've thought/assumed that maybe the Greeks, Egypt and the Seleucids would try to contest for power in the region against Carthage. As for Carthage discovering the Azores and expanding mroe into Africa, I fully intend to do so.

I think that comes mainly from Poul Anderson's story "Delenda Est", in which he has Hannibal win the Second Punic War because Publius Cornelius Scipio and his son (Scipio Africanus) were killed at the Battle of Ticinus. It's possibly one of the most ambitious alt hist stories written as it describes the world more than 2000 years after the POD. The Celts dominate in Western Europe and North America while Lithuania (Littorn) is dominant in Eastern Europe. It does cheat somewhat in that nothing new is really introduced. Anderson removes Roman-Greek culture and Judeo-Christianity and lets the remaining cultures/religions fill the space provided.

Cheers,
Nigel.

That sounds like a fairly good premise, but I'll try to cheat a lot less when it comes Greco-Roman culture and Judeo-Christianity.

 

[Askelion]

Well, among the more interesting implications lie in the Italic factions which were demolished otl:
1. Samnites: The Samnite League was still influential militarily and sided with Carthage OTL. Warlike, determined, aphroditian ( cult of Venus). Could be real interesting.
2.Vestini Cities: Laconian colonists who attempted to retain indepedance by supporting Carthage.
3.Magna Graecia: Greek Colonies in southern Italy.
4.Diadochoi: Without Rome stomping around, we'll see more of the Seleukidae, Ptolmaioi, Baktraioi, Indikoi, etc...

In short, I look forward to seeing this timeline unfold!
Best Regards,
Ash

 

[Emperor Norton I]

I think that comes mainly from Poul Anderson's story "Delenda Est", in which he has Hannibal win the Second Punic War because Publius Cornelius Scipio and his son (Scipio Africanus) were killed at the Battle of Ticinus. It's possibly one of the most ambitious alt hist stories written as it describes the world more than 2000 years after the POD. The Celts dominate in Western Europe and North America while Lithuania (Littorn) is dominant in Eastern Europe. It does cheat somewhat in that nothing new is really introduced. Anderson removes Roman-Greek culture and Judeo-Christianity and lets the remaining cultures/religions fill the space provided.

Cheers,
Nigel.

There's also a book called "Hannibal's Children" and it's sequel "The Seven Hills" which deals with this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal's_Children
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Hills

 

[Malta]

They discover Atlantis!

Or pretty much remove Rome, their only real rival in the Med. Though their position is rockey at best, if the cash doesn't flow they will face alot of problems with their Merc army and are very liable to be wiped out when the Arabs come out of the Arabian Penin. Which I view as a possible, even if it is not religiously motivated.

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Ok, I couldn't stay away from this for very long.

So Hannibal succeeds in sacking Rome, massacres the Senate, and sells a great deal of the Roman citizenry within Rome and surrounding colonae into slavery, with camps on the western coastline of Latium retaining native Latins and Romans while waiting for Phoenician and Greek merchant vessels to collect them. The warships of the Roman navy in dock are confiscated by Hannibal's forces. Within decades, central Italy or Latium, Etruria and Umbria, bereft of central authority, could be targeted for expansion by the Celts, Samnites, or from abroad.

If he captures Rome after 212 BCE, Hellenic city-state of Syracuse in Sicily would no longer be in any position to oppose Carthaginian expansionism on the island.

The Samnites in southern Italy might be able to revive their federation in the absence of Roman rule.

The Celtic tribes of the Boii and the Insubres would be able to dominate northern Italy.

Carthage's supremacy at sea may be restored within a few years of Rome's destruction. Although the hidebound oligarchy of Carthage may limit the long-term survival of the state. Scenarios abound where Hannibal may gather his forces, overthrow the Senate, Hundred and Four council, and install a new dynastic regime. But OTOH, since his family have been ruling the Iberian Punic territories since the time of his father, he might just establish a seperate Punic polity in the Mediterranean which forces Carthage to bow to its terms.

Another fate for Carthage could that its eventually overthrown by a growing confederation of Numidian tribes, whom may or may not capture Carthage and establish it as the capital of their new kingdom. In that TL, the Punic domains in Spain and Sicily would carry on as before, although Iberia could end being ruled in the future by growing Lusitanni or Celtiberian Arevaci forces.

In the absence of the Roman Republic, political entities in Gaul could take shape. The Arverni tribe, who are mentioned as leading the most impressive tribal confederation in Gaul until their defeat by Rome in the 120's BCE, would go from strengh to strengh, totally subsuming rivals like the Aedui, Sequani, Lemovicii, Allobroges, Aquitanni, the Volcae-Arecomici and the Belgae. Plus Greek colonies on Gauls southern coast such as Massalia (Marseille) could end up as a protectorate of whatever Gallic polity arises.

Certain conditions were needed for the spread of Christianity. With Rome cut down before its prime, there is no reason in my opinion that we would be seeing the same thing happen. The dominant religions in this TL could be derived from Celtic Polytheism, Greek Polytheism, and the Thraco-Dacian cult of Zalmoxis, which is believed to be a form of Monotheism.

The Phoenician religion may survive in North Africa, although if its true about the practice of infant blood sacrifices, hopefully it may have gradually become out-phased or even abolished as a religious practice.

Celtic Polytheism was guided and regulated by the Druidic class in society. They were an intertribal group whom occasionally assembled to revise the common body of religious-based laws that they all abided by. There is potential in this.

 

[Coyote Knight]

Thanks for the input guys. Some great stuff in there.

 

[Coyote Knight]

Well, among the more interesting implications lie in the Italic factions which were demolished otl:
1. Samnites: The Samnite League was still influential militarily and sided with Carthage OTL. Warlike, determined, aphroditian ( cult of Venus). Could be real interesting.
2.Vestini Cities: Laconian colonists who attempted to retain indepedance by supporting Carthage.
3.Magna Graecia: Greek Colonies in southern Italy.
4.Diadochoi: Without Rome stomping around, we'll see more of the Seleukidae, Ptolmaioi, Baktraioi, Indikoi, etc...

In short, I look forward to seeing this timeline unfold!
Best Regards,
Ash

Askelion, could you tell me a little more about the Vestini Cities if possible?

 

[Bill Cameron]

CF,

Might a slightly larger Northern African hinterland around Carthage help? Not enough to shift Carthage's focus away from maritime interests, but enough to give her a somewhat larger "native" population.

Think of it as Carthage having her own "Latin League".


Bill

 

[Mirza Khan]

Well, the ancient world isn't as much my forte as other areas of history, but I don't think Carthage would build up an Empire a la Rome-they were traders, and they'd probably prefer the "soft power" approach. Thus, once Hannibal had destroyed Rome, I expect they'd withdraw and let the various factions on the Italian peninsula fill in the power vacuum (and probably have a series of wars to establish who gets to be the big fish in the pond since Rome is gone). Carthage would probably turn its attention to building up its navy and dominating the Mediterranean (and it probably wouldn't have any real contenders now that Rome is gone). They'd seek to bring all the Greek city-states around the Mediterranean under their protection/vassalage, but leave the current governments in place to run local affairs. Greek remains the language of the Mediterranean trade network, and Carthaginian culture eventually becomes heavily hellenized. The Celts remain dominant in France and Spain, but are greatly influenced by contact and trade with the Carthaginian and Greek colonies, gradually becoming more urbanized and adopting the trappings of Punic-Hellenic culture. Eventually, the Carthaginian trade empire would come under pressure from Berbers in its interior and the growing strength of the Celts, Germans, and other indigenous European groups and collapses sometime in the 3rd-4th century. Punic declines in North Africa, which comes to be dominated by Berber languages, while Celtic, Italic, and Germanic (with some Greek influence and loanwords) are dominant in Europe.

 

[Coyote Knight]

CF,

Might a slightly larger Northern African hinterland around Carthage help? Not enough to shift Carthage's focus away from maritime interests, but enough to give her a somewhat larger "native" population.

Think of it as Carthage having her own "Latin League".


Bill

I could see that happening. I think Hannibal would advocate conquering territory to enable Carthage to raise huge armies similar to what happened with regards to Spain.

Well, the ancient world isn't as much my forte as other areas of history, but I don't think Carthage would build up an Empire a la Rome-they were traders, and they'd probably prefer the "soft power" approach. Thus, once Hannibal had destroyed Rome, I expect they'd withdraw and let the various factions on the Italian peninsula fill in the power vacuum (and probably have a series of wars to establish who gets to be the big fish in the pond since Rome is gone). Carthage would probably turn its attention to building up its navy and dominating the Mediterranean (and it probably wouldn't have any real contenders now that Rome is gone). They'd seek to bring all the Greek city-states around the Mediterranean under their protection/vassalage, but leave the current governments in place to run local affairs. Greek remains the language of the Mediterranean trade network, and Carthaginian culture eventually becomes heavily hellenized. The Celts remain dominant in France and Spain, but are greatly influenced by contact and trade with the Carthaginian and Greek colonies, gradually becoming more urbanized and adopting the trappings of Punic-Hellenic culture. Eventually, the Carthaginian trade empire would come under pressure from Berbers in its interior and the growing strength of the Celts, Germans, and other indigenous European groups and collapses sometime in the 3rd-4th century. Punic declines in North Africa, which comes to be dominated by Berber languages, while Celtic, Italic, and Germanic (with some Greek influence and loanwords) are dominant in Europe.

That all sounds fairly plausible(even the Hellenization) except for the Greek Cities falling under Punic protection/vassalage. Carthage was in a virtually perennial war with the Greek Cities, namely Syracuse. They also fought ALONGSIDE ROME against Epirus which was a Greek Kingdom. If anything, Carthage would conquer as many Greek cities in the western Mediterranean as possible.

 

[Mirza Khan]

That all sounds fairly plausible(even the Hellenization) except for the Greek Cities falling under Punic protection/vassalage. Carthage was in a virtually perennial war with the Greek Cities, namely Syracuse. They also fought ALONGSIDE ROME against Epirus which was a Greek Kingdom. If anything, Carthage would conquer as many Greek cities in the western Mediterranean as possible.

I was more thinking of the Greek cities in south Italy and along the OTL French and Spanish coastline. Once the Romans are gone, they'll eventually be forced to submit to either the Carthaginians or the various Celtic/Iberian/Italic tribes of Europe, and I think they'd pick Carthage (in their minds, its a "civilized" state vs. people they'll see as illiterate, painted forest warriors...plus, I expect Carthage would use its superior sea power to invade a few of the more recaltrant ones, and the rest eventually fall into line).

 

[Coyote Knight]

I was more thinking of the Greek cities in south Italy and along the OTL French and Spanish coastline. Once the Romans are gone, they'll eventually be forced to submit to either the Carthaginians or the various Celtic/Iberian/Italic tribes of Europe, and I think they'd pick Carthage (in their minds, its a "civilized" state vs. people they'll see as illiterate, painted forest warriors...plus, I expect Carthage would use its superior sea power to invade a few of the more recaltrant ones, and the rest eventually fall into line).

Ah, I see where you're coming from. In Southern Italy and Southern France it would be possible I guess, but I can guarantee that if given the chance in OTL, the Carthaginians would wipe Syracuse off the map, and enjoy doing so.

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Carthage under its contemporary form of government won't make at as an last as an imperial power. They are more like a merchant republic. Hannibal Barca that succeeds in his goal against the Roman Republic mayuse the means at his disposal to eventually seize power within the city itself, or establish a rival Punic state ruled by his family's dynasty. Hannibal was said to have had an Iberian mother, so that could entail closer relations with client Iberian tribes, whom after all had contributed to the bulk of Hannibal's army in the beginning of the Second Punic War.

The Third Century BCE may have been the beginning of urbanization among the Celtic tribes in western and central Europe. Trade with the Greeks as early as the 8th-6th centuries BCE would have expedited this. Not only were precious metals abundant in Gaul at the time, but jewellery and steel manufactured by the Celts were prized by Mediterranean civilizations. Sword-blades from the Noricae in Austria was the favourite of the Roman Army. Chainmail armour was a Celtic design, and the oval-shaped shields, refered to as the Scutum by Romans, and the Thureos by the Greeks, originated from the Celts. Mercenaries from Gaul, the Boii from northern Italy and Bohemia, the Scordisci in Pannonia, the Volcae-Aegosages in Thrace, and the Galatians in central Anatolia, had been known to have fought in the armies of Carthage, Syracuse, Rome, Ptolemaic Egypt, Seleucid Syria, Pontus, Epirus, and Macedonia. So given their widespread use and popularity, its doubtful that they were actually the undisciplined wildmen of popular imagination.

Syracuse in Sicily was sacked by the Romans in 212 BCE. If Hannibal destroyed Rome after this date, resistance to Punic or Carthaginian conquest on the island would be divided and unfocused.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Just like the greek cities was doomed to fall to Rome in OTL, the Greek cities wont stand a chance against Carthage after Rome is defeated.

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Just like the greek cities was doomed to fall to Rome in OTL, the Greek cities wont stand a chance against Carthage after Rome is defeated.

Would that be the Greek colonies and city-states in the western Mediterranean, or those in Hellas and Anatolia as well? Because there was a reason why Carthage's armies were primarily composed of mercenaries and native Libyan conscripts.

Carthage may have been a huge city, but it had a relatively limited hereditary citizen-body, most of which were merchants, shop-keepers, craftsmen, and sailors. Not to mention the priesthoods and the nobility. A Carthaginian victory in the Second Punic War would revive Carthage's for a century at least. But it is ruled by an oligarchic political system that is wary of change. It didn't have the same inclusive concept of citizenship like Rome did which allowed them to be expansionistic. And it doesn't quite have the military resources that were at the disposal of major Hellenistic monarchies like those of the Seleucids or the Ptolemies.

Without some forceful political reforms within the Carthaginian Empire, the Numidian tribes in the interior could prove a major factor in Carthage's downfall in a TL where Rome is destroyed.

 

[Mirza Khan]

Would that be the Greek colonies and city-states in the western Mediterranean, or those in Hellas and Anatolia as well? Because there was a reason why Carthage's armies were primarily composed of mercenaries and native Libyan conscripts.

Carthage may have been a huge city, but it had a relatively limited hereditary citizen-body, most of which were merchants, shop-keepers, craftsmen, and sailors. Not to mention the priesthoods and the nobility. A Carthaginian victory in the Second Punic War would revive Carthage's for a century at least. But it is ruled by an oligarchic political system that is wary of change. It didn't have the same inclusive concept of citizenship like Rome did which allowed them to be expansionistic. And it doesn't quite have the military resources that were at the disposal of major Hellenistic monarchies like those of the Seleucids or the Ptolemies.

Without some forceful political reforms within the Carthaginian Empire, the Numidian tribes in the interior could prove a major factor in Carthage's downfall in a TL where Rome is destroyed.

Well, if you notice I didn't have them construct an empire so much as more centralized and controlled version of the Hansiatic League. That said, the Roman government reformed once it started growing into an Empire, and the Carthaginian one probably would too (maybe, as you've suggested, Hannibal takes over and imposes something more like a monarchy). I suspect your right about the Berbers, though-Carthage would constantly have to buy them off or play them off against each other, and they'd ultimately fail. I suspect my TL would produce, by the 3rd or 4th century AD, a mainly Berber North Africa, a mainly Celtic Europe, and an Italian peninsula divided between Greeks (south), Italic-speakers (middle), and Celts (north), with each absorbing pieces of the old Carthaginian trading empire. Greek would remain the langauge of trade in the Med. for some time, but eventually, the various Western Greek cities (outside Italy) would become Celticised (though their culture would have a very strong impact on the various Celtic states).

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

In my Suebi Superpower TL, I'm up to the First Century BCE, where northern and western Europe is dominated by a federation of Celto-Germanic kingdoms, and much of the Maghreb region is ruled by a Punicized Numidian empire. I'm still sort of trying to plan out its political history in the centuries ahead. One of the ways I developed the Suebi empire or federation was through creating alliances with most of the northern Gauls, totally subjugating the tribes in the south and west of the country, and making Greek colonies like Massalia in the south a Suebi protectorate, an autonomous city-state that represents the Suebi in the other trading centres of the Mediterranean world. It was through Massalia that Greek scribes and craftsmen would be recruited to serve the Suebi overlords, that led to the creation of a new bureaucracy and the official adoption of the written word by the ruling authorities.

Carthage is sort of similar in nature to the maratime empires of Medieval Venice and Genoa. They would usually wage war to secure existing Punic colonies and their commercial dominance. Hannibal may probably lord it over in Iberia at first, but Carthage was still the greatest Punic city in the western Mediterraean, and had some pretty formidable naval dockyards which contributed to its supremacy at sea for so long. After seizing power in Carthage, he could gain the long-term loyalty of his Iberian, Greek and Celtic soldiers by awarding them land allotments in North Africa and Sicily, possibly creating the beginnings of a class of yeoman that would be beholden to him and his family.