Perception of Communism after Nazi victory

[Ghost8472]

So if the Nazis win WW2 would the situation be reversed??

Would Stalin be perceived as the greatest monster in history and would people learn in school that the evil comminist killed between 10 and 15 million people in the 1930´s what would be called Stalins Holocaust/Holodomor?

And would communism be prohibited/denying communist crimes be persecuted?

Also what if people like Robert Conquest would write books about the Nazi terror in the 1960´s and in 1999 Stephan Coutois would publish the Black book of Nazism/Fascism?

 

[The Ubbergeek]

There may be a communist underground later... a red resistance..

 

[The Oncoming Storm]

Certainly in Nazi controlled countries that would be the case. There are references in Fatherland to Nazi propaganda exploiting Katyn as an example of Communist terror, they would probably have also made use of the Holodomor for their own purposes, while at the same time treating the people who had been persecuted by Stalin just as badly.

Outside the Nazi sphere there would likely be continuing sympathy for the Russians and Katyn etc would probably be denounced as just Nazi Propaganda. As The ubbergeek says there would be a Communist terrorist movement funded by anti-Nazi states and the Nazis would be extremely brutal in dealing with them.

 

[MattII]

Well I hate to dis a timeline, but what PoD have you got for Germany even surviving the war? If they do, no or at least not in America or Britain, or probably even in Japan, mainly because the Soviets would be defenders rather than attackers, and so more than a few of their faults would go unreported.

 

[Ghost8472]

Well I hate to dis a timeline, but what PoD have you got for Germany even surviving the war? If they do, no or at least not in America or Britain, or probably even in Japan, mainly because the Soviets would be defenders rather than attackers, and so more than a few of their faults would go unreported.

But the Germans would claim the same things as did the Soviets when attacking Poland and Finnland and the Baltic: It was all only to gave us a better chance against the evil Soviet invader.

Of course they would claim that Barbarossa was an preemptive strike as the USSR was close to launching an attack.......

 

[MattII]

No-one believed either side over Poland, and no-one's going to believe anything that comes out of Germany anyway.

 

[I Blame Communism]

There's going to be the small matter of the Nazi state chewing the bones of Slavic civilisation. Killing tens of millions of people isn't something you can just cover up. The Holodomor will not appear worse than the famines used to destroy the majority of the Ukrainian nation with premeditated intent.

 

[Max Sinister]

In Fatherland, the nazis use the Katyn massacre, the Gulags and so on for propaganda. Not surprising. I think it'd happen ITTL too.

 

[sendô]

In our timeline the USSR was our erstwhile ally while the Nazis were evil monsters to a man. In realisty the regime in the Soviet Union was every bit as brutal, if not worse, killing or imprisoning millions of it's own people. I daresay has the Nazis won then the reverse might well have happened, although of course the USSR was never the enemy of the west in WW2 and so the status quo might have persisted there.

In the end both regimes were brutal, and the truths of this would have come out in the progressive western societies sooner or later.

 

[Alex Richards]

I think the Nazis would try to make this happen, but would simply lead to the west viewing both sides as being as bad as eachother, with a slight margin of popularity towards the Soviets on account that they're the ones currently being brutally opressed by the Nazis.

 

[Urban fox]

But the Germans would claim the same things as did the Soviets when attacking Poland and Finnland and the Baltic: It was all only to gave us a better chance against the evil Soviet invader.

Of course they would claim that Barbarossa was an preemptive strike as the USSR was close to launching an attack.......

If the Nazis win the batshit insane levels of irredeemable evil stuff they would do, would make the Bolsheviks at their worst look like fuffy teddy bears. A Nazi victory means scores of millions of deaths & whole races being wiped out. At least in the U.S.S.R you could survive the GULAG & even rise to the top afterwords. In Nazi Europe being of la ''esser race'' = death or enslavement/. End of story.

So in the end the Nazis are not comparable to the Soviets, they wont get the benefit of the doubt.

In our timeline the USSR was our erstwhile ally while the Nazis were evil monsters to a man. In realisty the regime in the Soviet Union was every bit as brutal, if not worse, killing or imprisoning millions of it's own people. I daresay has the Nazis won then the reverse might well have happened, although of course the USSR was never the enemy of the west in WW2 and so the status quo might have persisted there.

In the end both regimes were brutal, and the truths of this would have come out in the progressive western societies sooner or later.

Bollocks. The U.S.S.R lasted 74 years the two regimes also had very different ideals, foundings & evolutions. However bad High Stalinism was, the Nazis outdid themselves in cornering the ''irredeemable evil market''.

 

[Snake Featherston]

The Communists will be whitewashed and most of their actual crimes either forgiven or minimized in the wake of the deliberate and wholesale Nazi obliteration of civilization in what used to be the USSR.

 

[wcv215]

In our timeline the USSR was our erstwhile ally while the Nazis were evil monsters to a man. In realisty the regime in the Soviet Union was every bit as brutal, if not worse, killing or imprisoning millions of it's own people. I daresay has the Nazis won then the reverse might well have happened, although of course the USSR was never the enemy of the west in WW2 and so the status quo might have persisted there.

In the end both regimes were brutal, and the truths of this would have come out in the progressive western societies sooner or later.

Bullshit. The Spviet Union was brutal, but that was nothing compared to Nazi Germany.

In twelve years they killed tens of millions of people. They had plans to kill tens of millions more under Generalplan Ost. They were aiming at nothing less tha. The total extermination of multiple races. The Nazis were the most evil group that has be Ever existed, period and no contest.

 

[I Blame Communism]

I think the Nazis would try to make this happen, but would simply lead to the west viewing both sides as being as bad as eachother, with a slight margin of popularity towards the Soviets on account that they're the ones currently being brutally opressed by the Nazis.

There's 'brutally oppressed' and there's 'destroyed as a civilisation'. We're not talking about tit for tat. We're talking about the worst form of civilisation versus its utter absence.

 

[Faeelin]

There's 'brutally oppressed' and there's 'destroyed as a civilisation'. We're not talking about tit for tat. We're talking about the worst form of civilisation versus its utter absence.

It's also nto clear to me who this propaganda is directed to. "Awful Katyin, the massacre of 400 officers for a nation whose people we enslaved and whose language we destroyed."

"..."

 

[LOTLOF]

The Soviets, even under Stalin, were less brutal than Hitler and Nazi Germany. Of course that is a bit like saying you live some place with milder weather than northern Alaska.

When the Germans attacked the Soviet Union the most common wish was that they bleed each other dry. It wasn't as if anyone in the West had any delusions about Stalin. Even Churchill compared supporting the Soviets to giving the Devil a kind word if Germany invaded Hell.

The communists would not be fondly remembered, but once they were gone they might shine a bit in comparison to the Germans.

 

[Snake Featherston]

In our timeline the USSR was our erstwhile ally while the Nazis were evil monsters to a man. In realisty the regime in the Soviet Union was every bit as brutal, if not worse, killing or imprisoning millions of it's own people. I daresay has the Nazis won then the reverse might well have happened, although of course the USSR was never the enemy of the west in WW2 and so the status quo might have persisted there.

In the end both regimes were brutal, and the truths of this would have come out in the progressive western societies sooner or later.

The Soviets were evil imperialists, the Nazis intended one of the largest-scale and most horrific massacres in the event of their victory. Evil imperialism =/= to reducing any survivors of the largest-scale massacres in human history to illiterate serfs on top of blowing up and razing major cities and cultural centers. One is much worse than the other. Communism will if anything be whitewashed due to this.

I think the Nazis would try to make this happen, but would simply lead to the west viewing both sides as being as bad as eachother, with a slight margin of popularity towards the Soviets on account that they're the ones currently being brutally opressed by the Nazis.

Except that the Eastern Bloc was just horrifically brutal in terms of its MO, the Nazis intended wholesale extermination as *their* MO.

 

[zoomar]

The Communists will be whitewashed and most of their actual crimes either forgiven or minimized in the wake of the deliberate and wholesale Nazi obliteration of civilization in what used to be the USSR.

This is exactly what would happen in the US and other places not occupied or defeated by Nazi Germany. The communists and the USSR would be remembered in US propaganda as brave allies who were eventually defeated by the Nazis and then brutally exterminated. If Stalin was still hanging on in some sort of rump USSR surviving and still resisting the Nazis, they would be freedom fighters.

I'd argue that to certain extent his happened with respect to many Nazis in OTL when the west was faced by a hostile and expansionist Sovier Union. The attitude (some would say 'fiction") developed that, while the Nazi regime's leadership and the SS was evil, there were lots of "good Germans" including a fair number who had been members of the Nazi Party or Nazi supporters. Since early on, it was apparent to the US and British (and later the French) that some sort of German military needed to be reinsitituted and German industy restored, it made good sense to claim that the vast bulk of the Wehrmacht and industry consisted of good Germans who were not willingly part of the Nazi apparatus.

 

[Sang]

Bullshit. The Spviet Union was brutal, but that was nothing compared to Nazi Germany.

In twelve years they killed tens of millions of people. They had plans to kill tens of millions more under Generalplan Ost. They were aiming at nothing less tha. The total extermination of multiple races. The Nazis were the most evil group that has be Ever existed, period and no contest.

Between 65 million and 135 million innocent people were killed by the Bolsheviks between 1917 and 1991 in the Soviet Union.
The Soviets were no better - if not worse - than the Nazis.
This is not racism, this is cold facts. Calling someone racist or antisemitic won't change facts.
The Soviets were just as bad, or worse.

The Communists were the most evil group that has be Ever existed, period and no contest

 

[Snake Featherston]

Between 65 million and 135 million innocent people were killed by the Bolsheviks between 1917 and 1991 in the Soviet Union.
The Soviets were no better - if not worse - than the Nazis.
This is not racism, this is cold facts. Calling someone racist or antisemitic won't change facts.
The Soviets were just as bad, or worse.

The Communists were the most evil group that has be Ever existed, period and no contest

Last I checked the Communists weren't out to deliberately destroy civilization and reduce the survivors to slaves forever. The Nazis were, with the inhabitants of the USSR to be their "India". So kindly explain to me how Generalplan Ost is *less* evil than the reality of the Soviet Union? I might also note that 135 million people is a vastly exaggerated death toll, and even 65 million is no longer accepted today. This hardly means the USSR was not in fact a murderous evil kleptocracy, but in addition to Soviet death tolls being downgraded Nazi death tolls have been (as they should have all along been so counted) upgraded to 22 million. And this is a regime that failed in a short-lived span of time and didn't get its intended goal of butchering 30 million Slavs as the minimum starting point (the actual death toll would likely have been higher, not lower).