PC: Would a Habsburg Second Son Be Able to Keep the Netherlands Together?

[JonasResende]

So, there being an extra son for Karl V to leave the Spanish Netherlands to is a reasonably common theme on the site. But what I'm wondering is whether said second son would be able to keep the Netherlands (as he inherited it from Karl) together? It's all well and good to envisage this kid as being some great hope, but the truth would be, he'd be just as much of a foreigner to the Netherlanders as Felipe II was (Karl V's younger sons were born in Bologna, Valladolid and Toledo, and AFAIK, the Empress Isabella never set foot in the Low Countries - since usually when her husband went off to Germany, she stayed behind to keep the home fires burning in Spain), not to mention that if Karl V has a surviving second son, he's probably going to be raised in Spain (albeit, maybe in a sort of Dutch bubble) until he's at least say, 10-12yo.

Ergo, he's going to be a foreign ruler coming into rule the Netherlands, probably with very little knowledge of things on the ground? How is that any better than Felipe II's rule of the Netherlands (beyond the fact that the ruler is resident rather than an absentee landlord)

 

[mrmandias]

I think the main thing is he would be able to respond to discontent sooner, adopt policies that prioritized the interests of the Netherlands more, develop better situational awareness about who to buy off . . . not a gimme, but it does make the odds much better.

 

[Benevolence]

So, there being an extra son for Karl V to leave the Spanish Netherlands to is a reasonably common theme on the site. But what I'm wondering is whether said second son would be able to keep the Netherlands (as he inherited it from Karl) together? It's all well and good to envisage this kid as being some great hope, but the truth would be, he'd be just as much of a foreigner to the Netherlanders as Felipe II was (Karl V's younger sons were born in Bologna, Valladolid and Toledo, and AFAIK, the Empress Isabella never set foot in the Low Countries - since usually when her husband went off to Germany, she stayed behind to keep the home fires burning in Spain), not to mention that if Karl V has a surviving second son, he's probably going to be raised in Spain (albeit, maybe in a sort of Dutch bubble) until he's at least say, 10-12yo.

Ergo, he's going to be a foreign ruler coming into rule the Netherlands, probably with very little knowledge of things on the ground? How is that any better than Felipe II's rule of the Netherlands (beyond the fact that the ruler is resident rather than an absentee landlord)

Like you said Charles would probably have him raised in Ghent at a certain age. The Low countries and just countries/realms in general whenever they rebelled would play up the foreign monarch card. Charles had the revolt of Comuneros around his ascension to the HRE. I think the other key apart from what @mrmandias said is Mary of Hungary.

She is present and she'd be a key resource in raising him as she herself was well liked and learnt from their aunt Margaret before her, both were very adept at keeping the low countries governable. Both Philip and Charles initially tried to pull away from these women and their political accumen but it seems they learnt those were unwise decisions and generally followed their advice. The Habsburg's themselves aren't opposed to having their kids raised elsewhere when politically necessary or if they didn't have a choice e.g. Maximilian I having to surrender Philip to retain some semblance of influence in the Low countries w/o constant rebellion, Maximilian II leaving Rudolf II in the court of Spain, Ferdinand II HRE was raised in Bavaria etc (although all these examples didn't particularly end well)

 

[Anarch King of Dipsodes]

Well, for a wild-card, WI *Joseph, having lived in the Netherlands from childhood, and been influenced by that (more as a young adult than a child), becomes a Protestant along with his subjects?

The Hohenzollern and Wittelsbach families had Protestant and Catholic branches; why not the Habsburgs?

 

[Ian Henderson]

Why are we assuming that the Netherlands would go to an ITTL surviving second son? Charles wore many hats in his life, but he was a Burgundian first. He might well place the Low Countries into the hands of Phillip, and push him forward as the Holy Roman Emperor rather than his brother and his heirs, and leave Spain to the second son.

 

[VVD0D95]

Why are we assuming that the Netherlands would go to an ITTL surviving second son? Charles wore many hats in his life, but he was a Burgundian first. He might well place the Low Countries into the hands of Phillip, and push him forward as the Holy Roman Emperor rather than his brother and his heirs, and leave Spain to the second son.

Wouldn’t Spain be seen as the greater prize for the first son?

 

[Monter]

Why are we assuming that the Netherlands would go to an ITTL surviving second son? Charles wore many hats in his life, but he was a Burgundian first. He might well place the Low Countries into the hands of Phillip, and push him forward as the Holy Roman Emperor rather than his brother and his heirs, and leave Spain to the second son.

By 1531 Ferdinand was already elected King of the Romans and thus heir to the Empire, if you want to change this outcome you need the second kid to be born before that and to have some falling between the brothers.

 

[JonasResende]

I think the main thing is he would be able to respond to discontent sooner, adopt policies that prioritized the interests of the Netherlands more, develop better situational awareness about who to buy off . . . not a gimme, but it does make the odds much better.

I agree. But at the same time, that's assuming he's a reasonably competent ruler - if anything, Ferdinand I's boys ran the gamut from competent (Maximilian II) to disinterested (Ferdinand II) - so if he were of a personality like Ferdinand II, for instance, it would be different to if he's of a similar personality to his brother.

Like you said Charles would probably have him raised in Ghent at a certain age. The Low countries and just countries/realms in general whenever they rebelled would play up the foreign monarch card. Charles had the revolt of Comuneros around his ascension to the HRE. I think the other key apart from what @mrmandias said is Mary of Hungary.

She is present and she'd be a key resource in raising him as she herself was well liked and learnt from their aunt Margaret before her, both were very adept at keeping the low countries governable. Both Philip and Charles initially tried to pull away from these women and their political accumen but it seems they learnt those were unwise decisions and generally followed their advice. The Habsburg's themselves aren't opposed to having their kids raised elsewhere when politically necessary or if they didn't have a choice e.g. Maximilian I having to surrender Philip to retain some semblance of influence in the Low countries w/o constant rebellion, Maximilian II leaving Rudolf II in the court of Spain, Ferdinand II HRE was raised in Bavaria etc (although all these examples didn't particularly end well)

Too bad Felipe II didn't keep that up when Margaret of Parma took over from the Queen of Hungary.

Well, for a wild-card, WI *Joseph, having lived in the Netherlands from childhood, and been influenced by that (more as a young adult than a child), becomes a Protestant along with his subjects?

The Hohenzollern and Wittelsbach families had Protestant and Catholic branches; why not the Habsburgs?

If this boy came from the Austrian/Imperial branch, maybe he'd be a sort of crypto-Protestant. Felipe II was usually pretty pragmatic about Protestantism abroad in general (he advised Mary against burning heretics in England, for instance), but refused to allow it in his realm. He advised Caterina de Medici to rid herself of the Protestant scum surrounding her, and she sent back a very tart reply, Felipe didn't push the issue. Compared to his two sisters, Maria and Juana (one who said when returning to Spain she "was glad to be in a country with no heretics" and the other who is supposedly the only female ever inducted into the Jesuit order), Felipe comes across as filled with warm and fuzzies for them (not actually, but you get what I'm going for).

To convert to Protestantism would be both a major boon and a a major millstone for this boy. OTOH he'd have a sort of parity with (part of) his subjects and be "relatable", and prove that he's not the taking orders from Madrid etc. OTOH, the majority reformed religion of the Netherlands was Calvinism rather than Lutheranism. Under the Peace of Augsburg, Calvinism was technically "illegal" AFAIK, and to convert to Lutheranism might be as much help as Friedrich V of the Palatinate's Calvinism was in Lutheran/Hussite Bohemia in the 30YW (although Freddie was also an idiot in many ways IMHO, but that's a whole other discussion). Felipe II's reaction to his brother's conversion (which might not even be seen as sincere by the populace he's ruling) I could imagine being similar to the family's reaction to Juana la Loca (who simply preferred a different form of Catholicism - Burgundian to Spanish) or Rudolf II (in both cases where the rightful ruler winds up deposed by their more suitably Catholic relatives).

Why are we assuming that the Netherlands would go to an ITTL surviving second son? Charles wore many hats in his life, but he was a Burgundian first. He might well place the Low Countries into the hands of Phillip, and push him forward as the Holy Roman Emperor rather than his brother and his heirs, and leave Spain to the second son.

Because Karl intended it to go to his daughter, Maria, as a dowry, but then decided against it. Also, he'd signed a deal with Ferdinand I (and the German electors wouldn't accept another a Spanish emperor, although they went with Rudolf, who as pointed out, was raised in Spain). So, in lieu of granting the second son Burgundy, Karl might do as he did in @Kynan's Stewart Survival TL and give the boy the kingdom of Naples instead.

Wouldn’t Spain be seen as the greater prize for the first son?

Yes and no. AIUI, the Netherlands were pretty wealthy on their own. But Spain was a "kingdom" while Burgundy was a patchwork quilt of 17 different titles (IIRC).

 

[Ian Henderson]

Thanks for the responses, I wasn’t clear on the timing of the divisions.

 

[Daedalus]

The real trouble with Burgundy lies in the Reformation and its position next to France. The north was Protestant, the south was Catholic. If the second son was Catholic, it would alienate the north. If he converted, the south would feel alienated and might turn to France for help.

Not to mention the whole lack of a kingship. He could, as JonasResende said, give the second son the title of King of Naples and Sicily, probably including Milan with it as well. These could serve as a chain of sorts for extra troops and goods much like the Spanish Road OTL.

It would also help if Karl had beaten the French more soundly in the wars during his reign. He was still claimant to the Duchy of Burgundy until the Treaty of Cambrai, so if he had performed better, he might have taken the lands of the duchy or at least preserved his claim and still had Francis recognizes Imperial authority over Flanders and Artois.

 

[Benevolence]

The real trouble with Burgundy lies in the Reformation and its position next to France. The north was Protestant, the south was Catholic. If the second son was Catholic, it would alienate the north. If he converted, the south would feel alienated and might turn to France for help.

Not to mention the whole lack of a kingship. He could, as JonasResende said, give the second son the title of King of Naples and Sicily, probably including Milan with it as well. These could serve as a chain of sorts for extra troops and goods much like the Spanish Road OTL.

It would also help if Karl had beaten the French more soundly in the wars during his reign. He was still claimant to the Duchy of Burgundy until the Treaty of Cambrai, so if he had performed better, he might have taken the lands of the duchy or at least preserved his claim and still had Francis recognizes Imperial authority over Flanders and Artois.

I think this is actually incorrectly, initially it was more like right in the middle and south that were prostestant, it was after the war that we had the north flip and the south re-catholicise. Correct me if I'm wrong forum. Also I think not matter how one slices it it'll be easier to give a second son the low countries rather than Naples + Sicily. There's precedent for Naples + Sicily for sure but local elements in the spanish court viewed the med. more so their realm/arena of influence than say the low countries

 

[Janprimus]

I think this is actually incorrectly, initially it was more like right in the middle and south that were prostestant, it was after the war that we had the north flip and the south re-catholicise. Correct me if I'm wrong forum. Also I think not matter how one slices it it'll be easier to give a second son the low countries rather than Naples + Sicily. There's precedent for Naples + Sicily for sure but local elements in the spanish court viewed the med. more so their realm/arena of influence than say the low countries

You're correct that initially Protestantism spread in the South of the Low Countries first, however and that's the important part in the North they managed to get a lasting foothold in (the county of) Holland (so Holland proper, not the modern Pars pro Toto). Also I'd like to point out that initial grievances were political, shared by Protestants and Catholics alike, but it was the parallel war of Religion, that complicated things a lot, it added a civil war to the mix, which broke the united front of the Rebellion. Religious radicals from both sides, often with scores to settle, drove a wedge between those groups, by once in power being intolerant towards the other. Those Protestants burned all bridges to reconcile with their formal monarch residing in Spain, whereas many Catholics came to the point that they preferred rule from Spain, a Catholic power, over being relegated to 2nd rate citizens by Protestants (in all fairness Catholics, when in power, treated Protestants in a similar manner).

Naples and Sicily were a part of the traditional sphere of influence of the Crown of Aragon, whereas the Low Countries and Franche Comté ((free) county (palatine) of Burgundy) came from the Burgundian Inheritance of the house of Habsburg. In fact, as noted, Karel/Charles V was raised in Gent (Gand), Mechelen (Malines) and Brussel (Bruxelles), so the Burgundian Netherlands really were his home and he understood the region, OTOH Filips/Philippe II was raised in Spain and never really understood the Low Countries in the way his father thought he did. As a prince (infante-archduke) Filips did spend a few years in Low Countries, but even though he made the promise he would return at his departure, he never did. His policies, and this is important, resulted in many (lesser) nobles losing jobs and more important nobles being less secure of their job, sending Spanish nobles to fix things was seen as robbing salt in those wounds.
Basically Filips II mismanaged the Low Countries, for the changes he ended making, would have been hard for someone ruling from the region, let alone for someone, who neglected them an chose to rule over them from far away Spain. Clearly Filips did not pay attention, when he was told about the previous Valois-Burgundy and Habsburg rule in the Low Countries. The Estates General often forced their monarch into making concessions.

Personally I like the option that Karel (Charles) V gives it as a dowry to Maria (Mary), when she marries Maximiliaan (Maximilian) II.

 

[isabella]

Burgundy likely will not rebel against a local ruler (at least not at the OTL level against the foreign and absent Philip II) and a second son of Karl will rule from Burgundy, not Spain so he will be able to keep his lands intact without major revolts. Plus true who the boy (his name will not be Joseph, OTL younger sons of Charles were called Ferdinand and Juan, and other possible names are Maximilian, Alfonso, Charles, Manuel or less likely Frederick or Edward) would be born in Spain but not entirely raised there as he would be sent in Burgundy at the court of Mary of Hungary pretty son, around 5/6 years (and if possible Charles himself would take the boy there). Charles knew very well Burgundy and will surely left to his son instruction about what doing and not doing in Burgundy like that about Spain for Philip.

OTL Burgundy came from a different branch of the family of that of Spain and was really dear to Charles who was born and raised there and was undecided about what doing with it for long time, considering its inheritance a sort of wildcard to be given to either Philip or Maria as first was offered to Charles of France, Duke of Orléans together with Maria’s hand (as alternative the emperor offered his niece Anna of Austria with Milan as dowry), then Charles thinked to give Burgundy as dowry to Maria when she married his nephew Maximilian and in the end was undecided between Maria or Philip until the latter’s wedding to the Queen of England, when Burgundy was given to Philip and settled on the Children of the couple so Charles hoped to see it in the hands of a new English/Burgundian branch of the house of Austria and thus in personal union with England and not Spain.

Considering who in Charles mind Burgundy was never destined to be in union with Spain is logical thinking who Charles will give it to a second son by Isabella or if he decided to remarry after her death Burgundy will be destined to his children by his second wife in their wedding contract. Plus the chances who Burgundy will go to Maria and Maximilian without the English wedding of Philip are pretty high.

And really Charles was born and raised in Burgundy while Ferdinand was born and raised in Spain and neither of them ever visited the lands they would eventually rule until the death of their grandfather Ferdinand but still learned to rule well Spain and Austria so I can not see why Charles’ son will not be able to do that with Burgundy when he will be sent there at the latest at 12/14 years old so younger than his father and uncle and with Mary and Charles ready to teach him how rule well Burgundy

 

[JonasResende]

So, what I'm picking up here is that had Felipe II not married Mary of England, in lieu of a second son, Karl would have (most likely) given the Low Countries to Maria and Maximilian?

 

[Benevolence]

So, what I'm picking up here is that had Felipe II not married Mary of England, in lieu of a second son, Karl would have (most likely) given the Low Countries to Maria and Maximilian?

I think so, although I wonder if the disagreement of who would succeed Ferdinand I played a role as well. Maybe if Mary was allowed to wed Philip of Palatine-Neuberg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip,_Duke_of_Palatinate-Neuburg) that might've worked well. Alternatively if Philip is unavailable for some reason, Ferdinand of further tyrol is available, Burgundy could be transferred to him and he could wed Mary instead (Don't know when he met Philipine Wesler but it should be at least after 1556)

 

[JonasResende]

I think so, although I wonder if the disagreement of who would succeed Ferdinand I played a role as well. Maybe if Mary was allowed to wed Philip of Palatine-Neuberg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip,_Duke_of_Palatinate-Neuburg) that might've worked well. Alternatively if Philip is unavailable for some reason, Ferdinand of further tyrol is available, Burgundy could be transferred to him and he could wed Mary instead (Don't know when he met Philipine Wesler but it should be at least after 1556)

I know some have pointed out that Mary wedding Philipp of Bavaria is almost ASBish, but I would like to see the results of a Wittelsbach England (she'd wed Philipp earlier, and so have a higher chance of having kids), I think she'd still end up (sorta) being used by her alt-husband though, since Philipp was only interested in Mary in the hopes of getting Henry to back him for his imperial ambitions IIRC.

Philippine wed Ferdinand in 1557, but to do so, he'd need to be in Augsburg (I assume) to cross paths with her before that. Him wedding Mary/Elizabeth is not impossible (he was considered for Elizabeth in Mary's reign OTL - slightly better than his widowed father who had been considered for Lizzie in Edward VI's reign), and if Felipe II and Max II are both spoken for, Ferdinand makes the logical next choice. Simplest solution might just be to let Felipe's first wife survive (or let Maria of Viseu accept his proposal).

 

[Benevolence]

I know some have pointed out that Mary wedding Philipp of Bavaria is almost ASBish, but I would like to see the results of a Wittelsbach England (she'd wed Philipp earlier, and so have a higher chance of having kids), I think she'd still end up (sorta) being used by her alt-husband though, since Philipp was only interested in Mary in the hopes of getting Henry to back him for his imperial ambitions IIRC.

Philippine wed Ferdinand in 1557, but to do so, he'd need to be in Augsburg (I assume) to cross paths with her before that. Him wedding Mary/Elizabeth is not impossible (he was considered for Elizabeth in Mary's reign OTL - slightly better than his widowed father who had been considered for Lizzie in Edward VI's reign), and if Felipe II and Max II are both spoken for, Ferdinand makes the logical next choice. Simplest solution might just be to let Felipe's first wife survive (or let Maria of Viseu accept his proposal).

Did Maria of Viseu reject the proposal? From the little on Wikipedia, it made it seem like it was because Mary became ascended the throne, maybe delay the death of Henry VIII long enough for the match to be officiated and we take Phillip of Spain off the market

 

[isabella]

I know some have pointed out that Mary wedding Philipp of Bavaria is almost ASBish, but I would like to see the results of a Wittelsbach England (she'd wed Philipp earlier, and so have a higher chance of having kids), I think she'd still end up (sorta) being used by her alt-husband though, since Philipp was only interested in Mary in the hopes of getting Henry to back him for his imperial ambitions IIRC.

Philippine wed Ferdinand in 1557, but to do so, he'd need to be in Augsburg (I assume) to cross paths with her before that. Him wedding Mary/Elizabeth is not impossible (he was considered for Elizabeth in Mary's reign OTL - slightly better than his widowed father who had been considered for Lizzie in Edward VI's reign), and if Felipe II and Max II are both spoken for, Ferdinand makes the logical next choice. Simplest solution might just be to let Felipe's first wife survive (or let Maria of Viseu accept his proposal).

Maria Manuela can survive or Philip will remarry quickly enough to either of the princesses who were offered to him aka Maria of Portugal, Duchess of Viseu and Margaret of France, Duchess of Berry or also to Jeanne d’Albret after the annulment of her first wedding.
But I am not sure who Ferdinand, with a dowry of Burgundy, will be enough for Mary I as she asked at least a King (she wanted Charles V as husband not Philip, at least at the beginning and then the Emperor persuaded her to marry Philip, who was just Prince of Asturias and Duke of Milan) elevating him as King of Naples and giving him Burgundy) so she will want marry either Charles or his brother Ferdinand...
Well I guess either the younger Ferdinand then will be married to Elizabeth for securing the succession in both England and Burgundy if Mary want one of the older men or more likely Charles V will name Ferdinand jr King of Burgundy (or Netherlands) for satisfying his cousin and get England without him or his brother being forced to remarry

 

[JonasResende]

Maria Manuela can survive or Philip will remarry quickly enough to either of the princesses who were offered to him aka Maria of Portugal, Duchess of Viseu and Margaret of France, Duchess of Berry or also to Jeanne d’Albret after the annulment of her first wedding.
But I am not sure who Ferdinand, with a dowry of Burgundy, will be enough for Mary I as she asked at least a King (she wanted Charles V as husband not Philip, at least at the beginning and then the Emperor persuaded her to marry Philip, who was just Prince of Asturias and Duke of Milan) elevating him as King of Naples and giving him Burgundy) so she will want marry either Charles or his brother Ferdinand...
Well I guess either the younger Ferdinand then will be married to Elizabeth for securing the succession in both England and Burgundy if Mary want one of the older men or more likely Charles V will name Ferdinand jr King of Burgundy (or Netherlands) for satisfying his cousin and get England without him or his brother being forced to remarry

I think if Karl V (who she wanted to wed) or Felipe II (who Karl offered) is off the market, Karl might push the Ferdinands as the only available marriage-age men in the family (Karl of Steyr is there, but he's a smidge young).

Did Maria of Viseu reject the proposal? From the little on Wikipedia, it made it seem like it was because Mary became ascended the throne, maybe delay the death of Henry VIII long enough for the match to be officiated and we take Phillip of Spain off the market

ICR where I read it but the main reason Maria refused (apparently) was because it would curtail her freedom or somesuch. Henry's death had little to do with it, since the proposal was made twice - once in the mid-1540s when Maria Manuela died (Karl turned his attention to the French girls @isabella mentioned, but also to Lady Elizabeth Tudor and Archduchess Margarethe of Austria (daughter of Ferdinand I)), and again in the 1550s (after all those matches had fallen through the carpet) before Felipe II remarried (which is when Mary Tudor became the most eligible bachelorette in Christendom, and it's probably then that wiki means). Unless I/the author misunderstood and there was only one proposal.

 

[Mikestone8]

I think this is actually incorrectly, initially it was more like right in the middle and south that were prostestant, it was after the war that we had the north flip and the south re-catholicise.

Incidentally, at various times during the revolt, Archduke Matthias of Austria (later Emperor) and Francois of Anjou (younger brother of Henri III of France) were considered by the rebels as possible sovereigns of an independent Netherlands. Both, of course, were Catholic.