PC|WI: Domestication of American Species

Mr. BoJangles

Mr. BoJangles

A year old article in National Geographic mentioned how Russian Geneticists had been, for roughly 50 years, been working to domesticate the Silver Fox.

In America, typical conversation notes that species native to the continent aren't able to be domesticated. Yet the story of the Hare Indian Dog and the Russian Foxes has got me thinking that it might be possible.

So, what American native species, besides the Llama, would be able to be domesticated? My thoughts are on the Red Fox, Coyote, Bison, and maybe the American Black Bear.

Is this plausible? What would be the possible implications of this turn of events?
 
Sian

Sian

I see no reason why Bisons wouldn't over time be domisticated into a smaller, easier to handle race just as the auroch was domisticated into current day cattle ... or Coyotes in a analog to wolves

But to get to that point you'd have to have argicultural tribes, prehaps semi-nomadic traveling with their group of animals, which had bisons and not maize as primary food, and probably have a group doing that for some ... i don't know ... 500 years? enough to give time to breed a subrace of the Bison which is easier/more effective/whatever
 

DG Valdron

Hmmmm. Potentially, the Green Iguana, the Black Iguana, the Tegu. That's just lizards.


Beyond that, lots of potential microlivestock for use as food.


http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=1831&page=R1


Time lines on here have identified Peccaries, Small Goats, Artic Fox, Weasels, Snow Owls, Musk Ox, Caribou, Deer, Moose, etc.


Seriously though, this stuff is covered by a lot of threads. If you want my views on Animal Domestication, and the mechanics of domestication, try Land of Ice and Mice. Particularly, posts 168 (caribou), 194 (musk ox), 210 (ptarmigan), 238 (arctic hare), 240 and 245 (verminators).


https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=222103&highlight=Ellesmere


You might also try TwoVultures 'stinky pigs' timeline, and a few others.
 

DG Valdron

There's a lot of human habituated animals, that could be domesticates, if we could ever find a use for them.

Like Raccoons, Skunks, Crows, Seagulls, and Rats.

When you think about it, Dogs and Cats were probably in that category, and crossed over into active domesticates just because they had an actual use.
 

DG Valdron

The Ubbergeek said:
There was a pecari in a funky timeline too, I think, a wild pig-boar...
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Yeah, that was the Stinky Pig timeline. I think it was TwoVultures. He later went back at it, using pigs and goats, but I think he lost interest.

Jared in the Land of Red and Gold also touched on domestication, notably Quolls, Ducks and Emu in Australia.
 

The Ubbergeek

DValdron said:
There's a lot of human habituated animals, that could be domesticates, if we could ever find a use for them.

Like Raccoons, Skunks, Crows, Seagulls, and Rats.

When you think about it, Dogs and Cats were probably in that category, and crossed over into active domesticates just because they had an actual use.
Click to expand...

It was argued that if Cheetahs could have mated well in captivity over the ages, it may be domesticated...
 
metastasis_d

metastasis_d

I wish the black bear was domesticated.

I'd love to be able to go to the store and get a couple pounds of bear meat when I feel like grillin'.
 

DG Valdron

metastasis_d said:
I wish the black bear was domesticated.

I'd love to be able to go to the store and get a couple pounds of bear meat when I feel like grillin'.
Click to expand...

Could be done, possibly. 85% of black bears diet is vegetation. They're also capable insectivores and vermin predators, but the diet is fairly wide and they will take big game. Trouble is that they're more browsers than grazers as herbivores, and their herbivory is not particularly efficient.

Sexual maturity comes at three years, full growth at five. That's not encouraging. And reproduction is fairly slow, with average litters of two (as many as six, but seems rare).

But they're big healthy game 100 to 500 lbs, with the big meat on the disposeable males, and they store very well and are easy to harvest over the winter.

Probably not very good as a draft animal, though you might be able to get them to carry or drag moderate loads.

Best applications? Meat, fur, leather and possibly wool if you get the right mutation.

I could see them as a potential domesticate, if you had the right society in the right place, with the right quirk, and lacking alternatives. Or, for instance, if a minor mutation ended up incorporating similar cellulose digesting bacteria, which would allow more efficient foraging and larger populations.
 
metastasis_d

metastasis_d

DValdron said:
Or, for instance, if a minor mutation ended up incorporating similar cellulose digesting bacteria, which would allow more efficient foraging and larger populations.
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That's what I was thinking could be the best chance. Make them more efficient eaters. However, what would this do to their size? The large amount of meat/pelts would be the economic advantage to them. Would a higher plants/meat ratio in their diet lower their size any? I'm not good with biology.

Then again, a smaller size (especially if after-domestication) could make them easier to manage.
 

Dave Howery

one of the major problems with domesticating bison is that they have an inbred desire to migrate, and they are notorious fence busters. So to domesticate them in the first place, the natives would have needed to be settled/agricultural already, and have access to strong fencing materials... without steel, that's tough to do. Peccaries are notoriously vicious, just like the Old world wild boar; unlike the latter, the former don't get any better if you grab them young. Again, you'd need some strong fencing material to keep them confined. The Native Americans might have done it eventually, but they got a late start on agriculture in the Americas, took longer to develop domestic crop plants, and finally ran out of time in 1492. To get these critters domesticated faster, you basically need to change them to be more like Europe's domesticates... basically, a lot more tractable when young so they don't need to be confined... and even then, it's racing the clock to get those vital crop plants developed first and then domesticate the critters...
 

twovultures

Donor
Bears in general would not make very good domesticates, as their diet overlaps too much with humans, making them competitors for food. As has already been pointed out, they don't reproduce very fast.

Dave Howery is right that you need alternate plants if you want to see domestication really successful in the Americas. The Americas need earlier plant domestication for an animal domestication that occurs early enough for the domesticate to really spread over a large area. More time for technological development wouldn't hurt either.

And while my interest has wavered, it has never dissappeared. My 3.0 timeline is being worked on, and I will post it someday ;)
 
Sian

Sian

Dave Howery said:
one of the major problems with domesticating bison is that they have an inbred desire to migrate, and they are notorious fence busters. So to domesticate them in the first place, the natives would have needed to be settled/agricultural already, and have access to strong fencing materials... without steel, that's tough to do. Peccaries are notoriously vicious, just like the Old world wild boar; unlike the latter, the former don't get any better if you grab them young. Again, you'd need some strong fencing material to keep them confined. The Native Americans might have done it eventually, but they got a late start on agriculture in the Americas, took longer to develop domestic crop plants, and finally ran out of time in 1492. To get these critters domesticated faster, you basically need to change them to be more like Europe's domesticates... basically, a lot more tractable when young so they don't need to be confined... and even then, it's racing the clock to get those vital crop plants developed first and then domesticate the critters...
Click to expand...

well Auruch also wanted to migrate quite a bit, and so did horses, yet european stone age people managed to domisticate them. ... that and semi-nomadic people could probably still semi-domisticate still migrating groups, by following them on their migration pattern ... just like central asian nomads does with camels or horses

They (Native Indians) don't need better materials (although that always helps) ... their main problem was that other than the great rich tribes, they learned argiculture quite late, which yeah is something you need 'nearly' for all kind of animal husbandry.

Proof of concept would be the mayan/Incans/Aztecs, to different degrees ... Incans at the time of the europeans domisticated llamas and alpacas
 

Dave Howery

Sian said:
well Auruch also wanted to migrate quite a bit, and so did horses, yet european stone age people managed to domisticate them. ... that and semi-nomadic people could probably still semi-domisticate still migrating groups, by following them on their migration pattern ... just like central asian nomads does with camels or horses
Click to expand...

bison took migration to a much greater extreme though, traveling north-south in huge numbers and long distances. Cattle in the Middle East had nothing comparable, which made it a lot easier to grab them young and keep them close by. You can make bison stay in limited areas (like Yellowstone Park), but mainly by greatly reducing their numbers... when the bison in Yellowstone increased their numbers to park capacity, they caused problems in MT by trying to move north. Native Americans would have faced a big problem initially with young bison, in that when the big herds went on migration, the captured bison would have a powerful urge to join them... which is why the fencing is needed badly...
 

DG Valdron

Actually, migrators make preferred domesticates. They build up the relentless species stamina that makes them good draft animals. You got a critter that's used to crossing a hundred miles a day, day after day, year in and year out, you got an animal that can pull a loaded cart or a plow as if it was weighed down with nothing more than Dick Cheney's integrity.

Local hang about types, don't have quite the same stamina.
 

DG Valdron

Dave Howery said:
bison took migration to a much greater extreme though, traveling north-south in huge numbers and long distances. Cattle in the Middle East had nothing comparable, which made it a lot easier to grab them young and keep them close by. You can make bison stay in limited areas (like Yellowstone Park), but mainly by greatly reducing their numbers... when the bison in Yellowstone increased their numbers to park capacity, they caused problems in MT by trying to move north. Native Americans would have faced a big problem initially with young bison, in that when the big herds went on migration, the captured bison would have a powerful urge to join them... which is why the fencing is needed badly...
Click to expand...

Nah, big problem was that there was a serious lack of an adjacent agricultural complex of sufficient proximity and quality to interest Bison.

Basically, everyone loves the free meal. We had a mild winter up here, and what I noticed was that some of the Canada Geese, they didn't leave. Temperature wasn't too bad, open water for forage, people were feeding them. They stuck around.

Later on, this spring, I noticed some of those same lying fuckers taking to the air to join the incoming V formations, squawking their little hearts out and touching down in ponds only a few blocks from where they wintered. I guess they had some issues.

Unlike the agricultural complexes that were emerging in the fringes of the middle east and in central asia which produced lots of really gorgeous high quality forage for the big grazers - it was like a catnip buffet to the horses and cows, the humans of the great plains never did anything to get the bison really interested. They'd look at fields of corn and go 'Meh, what's farther on up the migration route?'
 

willbell

They could domesticate fish like the chinese did, or a lizard species, I know the Common Chuckwalla and Iguanas are plant-eating, I think perhaps with a POD about 75,000 years ago with the black bear growing cellulose-digesting bacteria in their digestive system you could have them slowly lose some of their edge, moving towards an entirely herbivorous lifestyle. Megafauna would work as well, don't just considered living species. Or you could have fauna from the old world come over with the first humans.
 
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