PC: Reviving the Anglo-French Dynastic Union Post-Angevin

[MarshalBraginsky]

The Angevin Empire was the empire that tied England and France together, though I'm not sure when did that empire collapsed. So, was it possible that the idea of a dynastic union between England and France could be revived, post Angevin era? Can this union be made on a similar model to the later Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth or the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

 

[LSCatilina]

Angevine so-called empire, in fact the collection of diverse feudal principalties that looked like more as puzzles pieces from different boxes, wasn't a dynastic union at all between France and England but rather a dynastic union between Norman, Angevine, Aquitain and Breton holdings.
(It didn't really collapsed, short of being a true more or less unified entity. The disappearance of real Plantagenet influence on the continent is traditionally dated on 1242, when the dynasty lost its holdings south of Loire except from Guyenne)

After the strengthening of the Capetian dynasty (critically after broke Plantagenet hegemony over western France), it's doubtful you'll have such dynastic union between England and feudal states, as it would be a casus belli at more or less long term.

So far I can tell, the only dynastic union was made after the Treaty of Troyes, that didn't lasted for obvious reasons. And after the HYW, there's few chances that anybody is taking the chances for that happening again.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

Possibly because of the fears that either England or France would end up dominating the union, right?

 

[LSCatilina]

Possibly because of the fears that either England or France would end up dominating the union, right?

Yes, in both of realms.
A English domination would have kind of pissed French nobility, clergy and elites that feared to be replaced (along with pre-nationalist issues) whatever among pro-Armagnac or pro-Burgundy.
And English elites kind of feared a french takeover of the whole union (admittedly based on the large demographical difference between both regions).

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

And there was the Auld Alliance which could have made things worse.

 

[LSCatilina]

And there was the Auld Alliance which could have made things worse.

Not necessarily.

A dynastic union isn't impossible per-se, and you could have some interesting PoDs.

I don't think HYW would be one of them, honestly.
Even if Valois dies out, or are unable to hold a claim ITTL, Joan of Navarre would be favoured rather than Plantagenets, for diverse reasons (the lesser not being she had superior rights).

Lancaster takeover seems really unlikely depsite their victories. Still, with a really really big lucky rap, they may hold it.

Another possible PoD be Louis VII of France being crowned as king of England. He came really close of that IOTL after all.
I'm not sure Capetians could hold it definitively, though, as the english nobility rebelled more against John than in favour of Louis.
He may as well be an Henri V equivalent, while I think he had more chances.
(Auld Alliance wouldn't play, for the simple reason it didn't existed yet).

Scottish interference, one way or another, would be quite limited anyway.

 

[Faeelin]

What about something with Mary Stuart? Her son ended up on the throne of Scotland OTL...

 

[LSCatilina]

What about something with Mary Stuart? Her son ended up on the throne of Scotland OTL...

I don't think a French-Scottish king, admitting Francis II and Mary Stuart have a viable son and admitting that Scotland doesn't choose a king of its own to prevent a french takeover, could reign on England at this point.
English Refomation only put another obstacle with traditional inimity and rivaling interests to that.

 

[Alex Richards]

What about something with Mary Stuart? Her son ended up on the throne of Scotland OTL...

I don't think a French-Scottish king, admitting Francis II and Mary Stuart have a viable son and admitting that Scotland doesn't choose a king of its own to prevent a french takeover, could reign on England at this point.
English Refomation only put another obstacle with traditional inimity and rivaling interests to that.

Thespitron6000's A more personal union does go down that route, but it requires (among other things) France going full Gallican and splitting from Rome outright.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

For this purpose, we could either have an Anglo-French union that remains Catholic or goes Protestant.

 

[LSCatilina]

For this purpose, we could either have an Anglo-French union that remains Catholic or goes Protestant.

Unlikely, frankly. Having a dynastic union imples having a matrimonial alliance with a marriage giving a common inheritence at some point.
And an alliance implies to have enough common ground to make such : giving the inimity and conflicting interests, it would ask for a enormous bit of luck to happen.

Not even considering the nobiliar or popular reaction, of course.