Ottocar II

Gladi

Okay I believe I waited long enough.
POD is this certain noble is able to finish border dispute earlier (maybe his oponent choked on fishbone) thus not requesting aid froom his liege lord. He, not having anything else to do, attends election of Holy Roman Emperor. With his presence and mainly presence of his "Iron Lords" Przemysl Otakar II is elected Holy Roman King. I will stop here, and ask you what do you see in future for this ATL with Habsburgs butterflied away and with strong 13th century Cental European state.

EDIT: hit wrong button instead 3- 2
 
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Faeelin

Banned
Specify the POD, please. I think it's possible, but dynastic affairs such as this tend to spiral out of control in a decade.

(nitpick: This is 13th century).
 

Gladi

Faeelin said:
Specify the POD, please. I think it's possible, but dynastic affairs such as this tend to spiral out of control in a decade.
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Okay. In OTL Ottocar knowing that he is the most powerfull of all rulers in HRE choose instead of goint to election to support one of his vassal in some unimportnat border struggle in person; without his presence electors found a unimportnant noble they thought they will be able to control- Rudolph Habsburg. But here Ottocar attends and is elected what do you believe would be general differences between this ATL and OTL?
 

Gladi

Yes his power was the main concern of electors, presumably I would say that they feared another Barbarossa, another real emperor, but I highly doubt they would refuse him face to face. As far as my memory serves in OTL Ottocar was first besieged unprepared in Vienna by combined German and Hungarian forces. Battle of of Mahrenfeld came when he was stripped most of his posession and evn then it was not lost by default.
 

Gladi

Nobody? I just destroyed Habsburgs with nobody to really replace them as Premyslids were looking more to east than them and they position unsure. I put strong state in Balkans. If some things go according to schedule and there are Czech curch reformers in early fifteen century we can see large scale reformation before Luther. And these are things I just now pulled out of my head... really the only interest I got is from Faelin who tried to deconstruct my POD :( ?
 
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
Its VERY interesting Gladi, but its WAY outside my so-called areas of expertise. Has this resulted in a unitary HRE that keeps greater centralised power ? Have the Mongols been ? I am not certain of the dates here...

Grey Wolf
 

Faeelin

Banned
Gladi said:
really the only interest I got is from Faelin who tried to deconstruct my POD :( ?
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Ah, perfidious Faeelin.

I'm merely dubious that any one emperor can centralize the reich. Look at the Luxembourgs, who made a good go of it, and failed, or the habsburgs.
 

Gladi

Thank you Wolf (can I call you wWolf?).
Unitary HRE- propably not, it can be argued that HRE by this time was beyond unification, but there would certainly be more united front to the outside; possibly some support to the east. Ottocar II participated in the baltic crusade- even founded city in area-Kralovec or Koenigsberg.
Mongols- too late, but they still rule to the east. Arrogant bastard as Przemysl was he could have tried to earn points and bring East under his rule and western christianity- but highly unlikely.
Note of interest- his son Wenceslas II is born before POD so is safe from butterflies, in OTL he was great even if bit mentally unstable- due to abuse as a child after his father death- which does not occur in ATL. He would for sure be able to snatch Polish crown as he did in OTL and with larger force he would be able to be real king there. Hungary is unknown though I would still say that royal line dies, but if he tried to get st.Stephen crown in this ATL he would maybe get invaded by everybody.
 

carlton_bach

Hey, don't get upset, I, for one,. like the idea. Greater Bohemia has always been one of my favorite alternate Central European powers. I just haven't had time lately to do much digging, so I can't contribute much.

Do you think the Hussites would still happenm, though? I mean, with Bohemia being a major power and no anti-German resentment likely to surface for some time?

If you add Poland, does that exclude the possibility of Poland later merging with Lithuania under the Jagiellon dynasty? What happens with Lithuania, then? Will they stay pagan? No reason not to, now that the juicy Polish marriage is a no-go. Will they just become part of Greater Bohemia 'from Sea to shining Sea'? Given to the teutonic Order to try and conquer (like that'll work...)?

With a center of gravity even further in the Southeast, what happens to the German territories in the north and west? Is there any interest by the emperor? Will the Rhineland and Saxony simply become independent by defaulty, later to be swallowed up by Denmark, Burgundy, or France? (With a larger territerial base in the area, could Burgundy become the counterweight to Bohemia? A High German/Czech-speaking southeastern land empire facing a Low German/Dutch speaking industrial powerhouse cum sea power?

OK, that's going too far. Still, interesting.
 

Gladi

Thank you Carlton Bach.

First it is quite difficult for me to just project beyond first affected generation, as I unfortunately do not have enough sources. But let us see.
Hussite wars- maybe yes maybe no. Hus will be born- he is of common ancestry and there is nothing that would affect him differently. The problem lies in Charles University. Charkes IV got lot of things from his stay in France, which happened because of good relations between house Luxemburg and house Anjou? (my knowledge is limited here). Anyway without that would there be an university? Charles university was first east of France and north of Italy. Possibly, Premyslids may not have good ties with France and may look in different direction, but they would border and have estates in Italy, maybe some Bohemian prince spends some years in Italy and comes home full of wonderfull new ideas. But even than wars are unlikely, though some early reformation may happen- the really big question is what would southeast reformation lead to? Northwest counter-reformation? Strongly catholic Netherlands?. side note - another interesting think about Hus is that he laid down many language rules I still use, modern Czech would have troubles reading what was written just two generations before him, but he and his succesor can be quite easily understood, would other Slavs under Premyslids adopt same rules? Moravians living in Hungary would for sure (there is no Slovak nationality at time). Others are unsure- no would create multi-national state; yes would lead to czechs outnumbering Germans.
 

Steffen

Hi, great POD.

- stronger unitarian HRE:

maybe it´s a great oversimplification, but without the habsburgs and a center of power further south-east, I think we will get another Imperial House soon, which is more germany-orientated and doesn´t run it as a sideshow. (I know that´s an oversimplification). I go some centuries further:

- The habsburg stay in the second line, in southern germany we get stronger duchies, I think, because they don´t ly as a battle ground between two centers of political gravity, the french rhine interests and austrians.

So the bavarians subdue the Habsburg and get their old "ostmark" back, the swabian duchy is reerrected,

the free knights and cities will be swallowed up sooner

Greets,
Steffen
 

Gladi

Bright day again
Steffen- I am sory but no Habsburgs here, I believe, as far as I know they were unimportant small nobles in modern Switzerland.
I already said that united HRE is unlikely, and actually thought about northwest, if you read what I had to say about hussites you can see mention of Catholic Netherlands- we get reformation in Bohemia on time the German or any toher opposition would be more likely to stay Catholic.
But if you mean less stronger states than I have to agree this is likely result. Maybe the increased tensions between big states would lead to earlier abolishment of HRE- maybe so that there is no "german" identity?
Can somebody with wider knowldedge try to project POD on surrounding world? Or how is Hansa at this time? When does Sweden start to go up? How many exactly years till Hundred Years War- and would it even happen? Do you think Italian city states will profit or lose because of now neigboring Premyslids (I can imagine conflict between Venetia and some Premyslid for possesion of Dalmatia).
Last note I doubt Bohemian Empire would survive its first incompetent ruler, Premyslids were on large arrogant, power-hungry and of generally unlikeable character- as you may say were all monarchs of age. I would say three of four succesor kingdoms more or less interwined, what is your opinion?
 

carlton_bach

Gladi said:
Thank you Carlton Bach.

First it is quite difficult for me to just project beyond first affected generation, as I unfortunately do not have enough sources. But let us see.
Hussite wars- maybe yes maybe no. Hus will be born- he is of common ancestry and there is nothing that would affect him differently. The problem lies in Charles University. Charkes IV got lot of things from his stay in France, which happened because of good relations between house Luxemburg and house Anjou? (my knowledge is limited here). Anyway without that would there be an university? Charles university was first east of France and north of Italy. Possibly, Premyslids may not have good ties with France and may look in different direction, but they would border and have estates in Italy, maybe some Bohemian prince spends some years in Italy and comes home full of wonderfull new ideas. But even than wars are unlikely, though some early reformation may happen- the really big question is what would southeast reformation lead to? Northwest counter-reformation? Strongly catholic Netherlands?. side note - another interesting think about Hus is that he laid down many language rules I still use, modern Czech would have troubles reading what was written just two generations before him, but he and his succesor can be quite easily understood, would other Slavs under Premyslids adopt same rules? Moravians living in Hungary would for sure (there is no Slovak nationality at time). Others are unsure- no would create multi-national state; yes would lead to czechs outnumbering Germans.
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How far along is the standardisation of the western Slav languages? Would Czechs, Poles and Slovenes understand each other? I think I sense something interesting here...

At any ratem, absent some major event you would geta major player in Bohemia. I would assume Solvenia and Austria to become part of the Premyslid lands sooner rather than later (they make natural additions, and Habsburg is going to be reasonably high on the bad list after trying to win that election). We shouldn't forget that there are, so to speak, two ways across the Alps, and Italy is not just connected to Germany via Nuremberg and Switzerland, but also along the Austria-Illyria-Veneto route. Might Bohemia choose to expand into Northern Italy, or would they just maintain trade and diplomatic ties? Allied with whom? They're fairly free from old loyalties, so why not share the peninsula with the Anjou and cultivate Milan and Venice (or one against the other)?

There may well be a Prague university, whatever shape it takes. The 14th century saw many foundations north of the Alps, though not many as prestigious. Surely, the kings of Bohemia would not be left out.

Ah, it's too late, I can't think clearly any more...
 

Gladi

Actually Carlton Bach, though I did not said that as I assumed it to be general knowledge (my bad) but Austria, Carinthia(Slovenia) and several other lands were already assumed by Otakar II in OTL before POD. When we add Poland to this we get empire having Baltic shore in north and Adriatic shore in south with uninterupted run of the land. This is just too big to keep together at that time.
I see Bohemia+ Austria+ Carinthia+ Hungary as one Premyslid kingdom. Poland+ part of Lithuania another with strong Teuton Knight presence there- Ottocar II undertook a crusade with them and he and his succesors would propably support them in the future.
Maybe some Premyslid Kingdom in Balkan? How would this change Turks and Byzantium?
Premyslids principalities in Germany and Northern Italy are possible too under minor branches of family.
I would say that the break would occur between second half of fifteen and same of sixteenth- things are moving then. Before that it would be one empire, and very large one.
There won't be any analogue to Habsburg marriage of 1477, Premyslids will stay in the east, who then could possibly get all the possesions?
Standartization of language- I can red polish, with problems, untill 19th century there was no clear distinction between these languages but trickle of dialects. Slovenes are different matter, they are South Slavs. In 9th century dialects were understood (slavonic the language of Moravian church was actulally south slavic dialect) but five hundred years passed since then at it was almost thousand years since lands were separated.
I will further brainstorm the thing, it is rather interesting how simple whim of one man may have had changed history so very much.
 

Gladi

*hides himself*

Well everybody wanks his own state at least once, right, right, riight...? :eek:

Well as I see it nowadays.

Przemyslids could have gotten the crown. But their focus would have remained more southward than OTL. It was OTL's marriage to Guta Habsburg which made Wenceslaus II interested in Poland. So ITTL they will waste their strengths in Italy- which leads us to question... OTL there was a strong hunger for precious metals, which the Przemyslids for some time will have a lot of...

Nation-wise the Czech language is going to take a hit, we may be talking about total germanization of Bohemia here.
 

DuQuense

# Wenceslas III

born Oct. 6, 1289
died Aug. 4, 1306, Olomouc, Moravia, Bohemia

last king of the Premyslid dynasty of Bohemia, king of Hungary from 1301 to 1304, and claimant to the Polish throne; his brief reign in Bohemia was cut short by his assassination, which also prevented him from asserting his right to Poland.

Wenceslas III renounced his hereditary rights to Austria and his Hungarian crown before succeeding his father, …
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I would assume that here he is not assassinated, at the age of 17, and goes on and has heirs.

This unites Bohemia and Poland, and any other little pieces of land that Ottokar II may have picked up while Emperor.
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1300.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premysl_Ottokar_II
 
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