Optimize the Axis Navies for WW2

[Naval Aviation Fan]

As with all the other like threads, this one too is about Naval Optimizations, but this time for all three Axis navies, and working together in as much as this is possible.

What I would like to do with this thread is have the initial discussions being limited to end of WWI to WNC/WNT time frame, as I have many questions and ideas, and I would like to have the opportunity to check my recently gained insights into the whole ToV - WNT package. To do this, I would like to use the functionality of the threadmark feature, and keep the initial responses within the 1918-1922 period, and not allow posts outside that range until opened up with another thread marked post, if that is ok?

 

[Naval Aviation Fan]

Ok, health been a non-cooperative life partner lately, but here we go...

So, by the end of 1922, the Japanese need to start seeing the WNT in the light of "we cannot expand, because the US/UK are both against us", and so start looking at ways to alleviate/alter this new balance. Japan fought alongside Entente during the war, but then are not allowed to keep their gains. Particularly telling is the forced hand over of the former German concession of Tsingtao on 10 Dec, 1922, as well as being forced to evacuate it's gains in the Siberian intervention, and thus being prevented from the creation of a puppet state in the Soviet far east.

My point being, Japan should, at least by the end of 1922, be starting to look for ways to give the USA and UK other navies to worry about. The first thing I would have them look into is the ToV (which cost them Tsingtao) and how to undermine it, in a kind of "what's good for the goose, is good for the gander" type of thing. Going along with that, is helping German circumvent all ToV restrictions (and all other treaties like the IACC and such), by way of encouraging/inviting/allowing the Germans, post 1922, to invest in schools/factories/slipways for building experimental/prototypes of things Germany cannot do in Germany itself.

Some things that would help the future KM,
Naval Guns pits, built with German funds (or possibly part German part Japanese, as they are going to be built in Japan after all), so sometime in 1923 - 1926, Germany can start building naval guns of whatever size they like, but in Japan, and so the ToV/IACC have nothing to say, should they even discover what should be a very tightly kept secret. I see no reason for the Japanese to restrict private German companies from developing 15" & 16" guns in the 1923 - 1926 period on Japanese soil.

Aircraft factories that simply allow experimentation, design and development, testing of prototypes. After all, the Germans did work with the Swiss on seaplanes, and the USSR on military aircraft/airforce.

Slipway(s)
So the Germans can work uninterrupted on evolution of undersea warships, without a decade or two slipping by without design and construction messing things up for them, and this is legal, as the restrictive treaties only prevent the German government from having these things, not private companies doing these things outside of Germany, right? One thing I have a particular interest in, is if the Germans are asked to keep some of these submarines entirely without armament, so if rumors leak out, the commerce/transport subs could eventually be trotted out.

Additionally, for Marine engines, can the Germans develop powerful engines, suitable for say a long range, commerce raider, and just stick them into merchantmen, so as to be able to test out the designs and work out the bugs? This could mean building a handful of German merchant ships, in Japan, with engines that have no place on a merchant ship, but give at least some of the needed things for engine testing and bug fixing, as well as maintenance over time, and long range/duration voyages.

In addition to the above, we should also think about an inter-axis military and industrial cooperation setup during this time frame, so that we can have some ideas of what the future threadmarks unlock.

So, for the next week or three, let us discuss how to optimize all three axis navies, in the time frame of 1923-1926, with a mind's eye to the following 4 year blocks. I see this initial time frame as critical, as getting the (future) Axis navies into fighting trim is going to take time, and we need to get the idea firmly set, as soon after ToV as possible.

What are folks thoughts on things, in the 1923 - 1926 time frame, that they would like to see investigated/discussed here?

 

[Naval Aviation Fan]

I apologise for my almost total absence, my health and vision have gotten the better of me of late, and as such I have not done much of a job of getting and keeping this thread moving alone, nor focused on the time periods between the threadmark posts. I'll keep on keeping on, but obviously I failed to deliver a thread where folks get a good discussion, so next time, I'll remake the thread from scratch, and spend a bit more time laying out the ground rules.

I think the idea of keeping a threads discussion strictly between time periods is a good and doable idea, and using the feature of thread marked posts is a way of helping folks focus on the handful of years within each.

That being said, I didn't put in the effort and time to ride heard and keep things moving, and focused, so a remake will take place after this thread reaches WW2 in 1939.

So, the show must go on, but a second and better one will be developed for v2.0 this summer, but lets stumble forward a bit more, before we throw in the towel and restart, shall we?

1927.
By now, we see the Japanese getting started training up their carrier airgroups, and having decided to give the RN (and MN) some troubles to worry about, do to the lack of equal status post war, by helping the Germans circumvent all the various treaty restrictions, like opening gun works that are treaty banned for the Germans to do within Germany (but NOT in Japan), so after 4 years, Germany can now begin designing, building and testing large naval guns, up to 15" or 16" guns (or even larger), without Germany needing to (technically) break the terms of any of the harsh treaties imposed upon them, but instead happily avoid them altogether in many ways, not possible without a disaffected Japan taking a bit of revenge by making it possible for the Germans to have proscribed things.

So, with a slipway (or more than one, really) what kind of secret engine development can Germany carry out in utmost secrecy, away from prying British and French eyes? What kinds of submarines will the Weimar republic be secretly building in Japan, both armed and unarmed versions in 1927 - 1930? What naval guns will be developed by 1930?

Dornier got away with developing seaplanes historically by building flying boats on lake constance, Switzerland, for instance, so other treaty circumvented expatriate facilities have a historical basis for actually taking place, and in a thread where we are looking for the three Axis navies to be optimized for WW2, we must surely include such schemes within the realm of possibility (historically, we got lucky that this kind of thing was as limited as it was, else WW2 could easily have been worse than it was).

Here is what Wiki has to say about the Dornier Do X:

The Dornier Do X was the largest, heaviest, and most powerful flying boat in the world when it was produced by the Dornier company of Germany in 1929. First conceived by Claude Dornier in 1924,[1] planning started in late 1925 and after over 240,000 work-hours it was completed in June 1929.[2]

During the years between the two World Wars, only the Soviet Tupolev ANT-20 Maksim Gorki landplane of a few years later was physically larger, but at 53 metric tonnes maximum takeoff weight it was not as heavy as the Do X's 56 tonnes.

The Do X was financed by the German Transport Ministry and in order to circumvent conditions of the Treaty of Versailles, which forbade any aircraft exceeding set speed and range limits to be built by Germany after World War I, a specially designed plant was built at Altenrhein,[1] on the Swiss side of Lake Constance.

So, how much else would Germany, if given a chance to cooperate with the Japanese and build facilities within Japan, could we see starting to take shape after 4 years of negotiations, and hurried construction of facilities, shipping needed experts over there and what not now being up and running? Unlike Germany, Japan has a vast region of ocean distances to cover, and many underdeveloped islands within this territory that could use passenger service, freight hauling, and even military service aircraft in the long range search role? If Germany can develop and sell passenger seaplanes, might the Japanese be a market for such, even if on a limited scale? What about wider markets world wide later on?

ITTL, Germany would have some pilots that would be very experienced in operating long range aircraft, on extended flights over water, if a German civilian airline could be put into operation within Japanese territory, that couldn't but help to provide the RM/KM a pool of personnel that would be just right to train up for maritime patrol all the way up the Baltic and North seas, right? For the Italians, they are not treaty limited by the kind of long range seaplanes that they could develop domestically, but the Japanese market dwarf's Italy's own Mediterranean theater, and so a Pacific passenger market might just be possibility getting Italy and Japan used to co-develop seaplanes with one another.

As far as cargo flying boats, the same holds true, and perhaps even more so than the passenger planes, and if engineering projects can have construction equipment being flown into remote and undeveloped areas...

Also, if we posit some ability to fly in some limited equipment, say for landing fields in remote locations, where on earth could such an air-mobile air field construction service be of use? Obviously the Japanese empire could and would be greatly benefited by such, but what about other lands NOT part of either the British or French empires?

Just for an interesting thought experiment, let us explore the concept of a three way business partnership, where Germany, Italy, and Japan co-develop and operate a series of aircraft related businesses, that start off offering developing countries contracts to develop and expand airfield infrastructure, air travel/air transport, and run airliners for those nations? I'm thinking that Chile and Norway might just like the idea of seaplanes flying in engineers, equipment, and supplies attractive, and eventually some choice locations could end up as full blown airports for land based aircraft. If properly done, with contracts and such, the tri-aircraft companies could forsee land based planes as the better way to operate from such airbases, and position themselves to be the supplier/operators for an exclusive time period, and while land based planes can operate more cost effectively, they cannot help with the development of the infrastructure (and thus getting the follow on contracts) in the first place, whereas the seaplanes can.

Got a lot more to say, but old man needs ever more naps.

 

[Naval Aviation Fan]

Been very bad and not updating this for far to long...

1929
So I'm thinking that in this timeline, with all the cooperation between Germany and Japan, the Germans go with an alternative to OTL and replace the Deutschland class ships with something more useful, so let us explore the Germans building 2 new armored ships of <10,000 tons, and guns no larger than 11", each year for the 1929-1932 timeframe, so something like:

1929
1) First ship laid down Jan 1st
2) Second ship laid down Mar 1st

The difference between these ships and OTL's ships, is that these ships will be kept under 10,000 tons legit, but instead of some over gunned heavy cruisers, these ships will be experimental aviation ships, as opposed to aircraft carriers, so the French have nothing to scream about (Muhahahaha), as carriers are only carriers if they weigh in at 10,000 tons or more.

Would Germany keep all 4 years building programs ships' identical, or allow for the designs to 'grow' like the OTL Graf Spee did, and become a 15,000 ton ship?

I ask this because one big justification for these ships is going to be that Germany was excluded from the WNT, and so initially (If they are unanimously voted into the treaty system by all signatories) then, and only then will the Germans be kept to that treaty standards, and any and all ship they are forced to lay down while outside such a treaty system will not be in compliance with the treaty systems and will be exempt from any and all such restrictions, so the longer it takes for Germany to be accepted, then the more and more ships they will have that will end up being built.

The Germans can truthfully point out that their follow on ships don't even have to be under 10,000 tons, unless everyone agrees to German inclusion within the WNT/LNT, and it is only a courtesy that the initial ship are going to adhere to the limit, even though Germany was not allowed into the treaty system for the last 7 years. If the 5 powers all vote to allow Germany into the treaty system, all future ships laid down afterwards will be within the limits.

As the French are never going to vote to allow the Germans a fleet equal to their own, the Germans will be free to build whatever they want, until something like the AGNA comes into existence.

So what are these initial pair of German aircraft carriers (padrone me, experimental aviation ships), going to look like, and what would the next pair look like if Germany isn't voted in by Jan 1st, 1930?