I don't think they were allowed to replace them with anything bigger than 10,000 tons.
Optimize the Axis Navies for WW2
So, in the initial stages of inter-axis cooperation, with the Germans taking the Japanese up on their offer to help the German contravene all the post WWI treaty limitations by designing/building proscribed things in Japan, what kind of engines could be built earlier than OTL for large warships, and tested out in merchantmen hulls?
If the Japanese offer to the Germans is made Jan 1st, 1923, how long does it take to build a slipway and all the needed infrastructure to be operational and building prototypes of large warship engines? Would fast passenger ships be another vessel type that could be built during this timeframe?
As far as submarines go, what kind of design work and tactical training could be carried out out with an armed submarine, and what uses would an unarmed submarine be found to have?
For guns, the Germans already had a 15" gun in service in 1916, so how would the gun pits in Japan work out? Would the Germans have a new, and workable 15" gun in service in the mid 1930's, or would it be more like the late 1920's, instead?
When would the Germans be able to begin timesharing Japanese flight decks?
If the Japanese offer to the Germans is made Jan 1st, 1923, how long does it take to build a slipway and all the needed infrastructure to be operational and building prototypes of large warship engines? Would fast passenger ships be another vessel type that could be built during this timeframe?
As far as submarines go, what kind of design work and tactical training could be carried out out with an armed submarine, and what uses would an unarmed submarine be found to have?
For guns, the Germans already had a 15" gun in service in 1916, so how would the gun pits in Japan work out? Would the Germans have a new, and workable 15" gun in service in the mid 1930's, or would it be more like the late 1920's, instead?
When would the Germans be able to begin timesharing Japanese flight decks?
BlackDragon98
Banned
Germany was pro-China during the 1920s and 1930s.
Hitler himself thought highly of both Chinese and Japanese and was scratching his head on who to support when war broke out in 1937.
It was only because of Ribbentrop and his stupidity that Germany and Japan became allies.
Lemming! It's time to do your duty.
1919-32 - Build to the limits allowed by the Treaty of Versailles.
This means that the Weimar Republic has to spend more money, but as the Treaty was so restrictive the extra sums of money spent 1919-32 won't break the Reichsbank in spite of Germany's economic problems. Furthermore, one of the following suggestions requires a less restrictive Treaty.
- Capital Ships.
- Lay down 6 Deutschland class 1928-32 instead of 3.
- According to Jane's 1931 they were going to cost £4 million each, which if correct involves the expenditure of £12 million over 9 years (1928-36) and in spite of Germany's economic problems won't break the Reichsbank.
- In common with OTL the next pair of Panzerschiffen (which ITTL are Nos. 7 & 8 instead of Nos. 4 & 5) is cancelled in favour of the OTL Scharnhorst & Gneisenau.
- Light Cruisers - Version 1.
- Don't build any of the OTL light cruisers. Instead lay down 8 enlarged Leipzig class 1928-33.
- Although they had a nominal standard displacement of 6,000 tons they actually displaced around 7,500 tons instead of the 6,515 to 6,980 tons that (according to Conway's 1922-46) the Königsberg to Nürnberg classes displaced IOTL. (6,650 tons Königsberg class, 6,515 tons Leipzig & 6,980 tons Nürnberg.)
- The increase in displacement allowed the ships to be built with stronger hulls and thus avoided the structural defects that ruined the OTL ships.
- I'm doing it like that because I want all 8 ships to have the Leipzig's Combined Steam & Diesel (COSAD) machinery because its steam and diesel machinery could run at the same time and the Combined Steam on Diesel (COSOD) of the Königsberg class couldn't & the ships' were vulnerable when they "changed gears". I'd have preferred to have the 3 ALT-Leipzig class built instead of the 3 Königsberg's, but I didn't know whether the technology was ready.
- This way the Kriegsmarine has 8 satisfactory light cruisers on 1st September 1939 instead of none.
- Light Cruisers - Version 2.
- Build the Emden as the version with eight 150mm guns in four twin turrets that supposedly wasn't built for financial reasons.
- According to Conway's 1922-46 Emden displaced 5,600 tons. ITTL ALT-Emden displaced about 7,000 tons which was similar to the British Leander and Amphion classes.
- Instead of the 5 light cruisers that were laid down 1926-33 IOTL build another 7 ships of the ALT-Emden type. The extra pair of ships would be laid down between the OTL Leipzig and OTL Nürnberg.
- This version spreads the extra cost over a larger number of years because 4 ships are laid down 1928-33 instead of 8 1928-33 in Version 1 and 2 1928-33 IOTL.
- This way the Kriegsmarine has 8 satisfactory light cruisers on 1st September 1939 instead of none.
- Destroyers - This is the part that requires a different Treaty of Versailles.
- Lay down 32 small destroyers of the Torpedoboot 1923 & 1924 types at the rate of 4 per year 1925-32. This is instead of the 12 that were laid down 1925-27 IOTL.
- The Reichsmarine had 32 destroyers in 1922 with an average displacement of 608 tons. They were completed 1907-13 and therefore under the terms of the Treaty became overage between 1922 and 1928.
- However, the Treaty only allowed Germany to build 16 destroyers of 800 tons and 16 torpedo boats of 200 tons to replace them. The TTL version of the Treaty has to allow 32 destroyers of 800 tons to make the above possible.
- Therefore, if this (IMHO) minor change to the Treaty isn't allowed then build all 16 destroyers that were allowed under the OTL Treaty by 1933 instead of 12.
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Warning
When you do think let us know. In the meantime.
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ARTICLE 190
ARTICLE 190
Germany is forbidden to construct or acquire any warships other than those intended to replace the units in commission provided for in Article 181 of the present Treaty.
The warships intended for replacement purposes as above shall not exceed the following displacement:
Except where a ship has been lost, units of the different classes shall only be replaced at the end of a period of twenty years in the case of battleships and cruisers, and fifteen years in the case of destroyers and torpedo boats, counting from the launching of the ship.
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@NOMISYRRUC ... I would like to mention, that ther gemans were actually allowed to build 8 (not only 6) 10.000 t ships, 8 (not only 6)6000 t ships and 16 (not only 12) destroyers of 800 t.
In a decision made by the Paris' ambassadors conference in 1921 (?) IIRC as an amendment to the original ToV it was them allowed to build said additinal ships as replacements for the already allowed reserve ships of old Deutschland or Braunschweig-class predreadnoughts.
And about the intended and planned and alread being in production 15 cm double mounts (not full turrets ye, "only" extended shild Box) ... again it was said Paris cnference that decided in favor of a french member of the Naval Inter-Allied Commision of Control as part of the Military Inter-Allied Commission of Control (ToV section IV arcticle 196 to 205) complaining about these mounts:
Source are (among others):
In a decision made by the Paris' ambassadors conference in 1921 (?) IIRC as an amendment to the original ToV it was them allowed to build said additinal ships as replacements for the already allowed reserve ships of old Deutschland or Braunschweig-class predreadnoughts.
And about the intended and planned and alread being in production 15 cm double mounts (not full turrets ye, "only" extended shild Box) ... again it was said Paris cnference that decided in favor of a french member of the Naval Inter-Allied Commision of Control as part of the Military Inter-Allied Commission of Control (ToV section IV arcticle 196 to 205) complaining about these mounts:
- Firstly the french argued that the ship the Emden (or any following new cruisers) were to replace - the almost ancient Gazelle- and Bremen-class protected small cruisers - carried only 10,5 cm guns
- Secondly the french interpretation was the germans were allowed only weapons - in genereal - existent at the moment of armistice and these doubls mounts were 'brand new' developments
(Btw these arguements were the same employed, when the germans intended to arm/upgun their "destroyers" of Type 23 and 24 class with 12,7(8) cm guns instead 10,5 cm guns though the first forme were 'only' bored out rifles of the latter.
Some complain that was this time and case fully followed.)
In case of the Emden the Paris' Ambassadors decided in favor of the complaint about ther mounts and gus as such'only' already existing 15 cm guns in already existing single mounts
but allowed the caliber of 15 cm. ... at the same time setting this caliber as the maxumun allowed caliber for german cuisers in general (caliber wasn't set in the ToV, the germans theoretically could have until then thought of arming these cruisers with larger calibers i.e. 17 cm as the middle artillery of the still in service predreads or even the 'Washington' 8").Source are (among others):
Werner Rahn, "Reichsmarine und Landesverteidigung 1919-1928"
Richard Lakowski, "Reichs- und Kriegsmarine geheim 1919-1945"
(the latter contains a 'nice' faksimile of a ship-replacement planning from 1927/28 with all these additional ship incorporated as well as giving the then price for a Deutschland class as 7.5 million RM each ... according to some currency converters this amounts to below 400.000 UK pounds only in 1927 ... I wonder where Jane's had this number of 4 million UK pounds from)I think a task like this requires some kind of POD to see it carried out, which is not easy. Although the best think for the European axis would have been not to align with Japan at all and maybe thereby stay clear of the US (The Japanese can distract the British fine on their own), we can also imagine a different path. Lets assume this starts in the KM and the foreign office who use the joint German and Japanese dissatisfaction with their treaty boundaries as a starting ground for developments throughout the 1920's and building to the Versailles limits. Diesels and guns for Japan, Torpedoes for Germany etc. Come 1933, we see a political plan taking shape spearheaded by Hitler who sees the opportunity to put maximum pressure on Britain and France when the time is right a political doctrine is established where the Axis powers advocate free trade over the colonial powers and prepares to break Britain and France. The Germans and the Italians convince the Japanese about the opportunity to cut-off the heads of the colonial empires by trade interdiction in the Indian ocean and an Italian Navy poised to tak the Mediterranean and the Suez.
To be continued...
Should this be a mini TL?
To be continued...
Should this be a mini TL?
I've been sick, and have not been working on this like I should have been. That being said, some of what you said makes sense to me.
For me, I'd like to hear more about the Diesels and guns for Japan and how the Germans would make use of naval aviation lessons with time share on IJN carriers. I'm not currently running a fever, so may get to play with this idea today (crossing fingers). Recent posts have made clear to me, that there was more wrongs inflicted on Germany than just the ToV and the gun restrictions, and I'd like to hear more about just what these were, as their getting tossed out/circumvented ASAP is needed for this threads premise.
Continuing on the post above. More or less what happens in the 1920's in this ATL. While the chiefs of the Reichsmarine were delighted with the collaboration established with the Italian and Japanese navies, it was clear that French obstruction limited what the Germans could do for the time being (French oversight if not outright obstruction would last until the Locarno treaty was signed) . A focus were therefore established where the Germans focused on propulsion, gearing, propellers and hull form to be implemented initially in merchant cargoes and liners while the partners would focus on the actual warship designs. German intermediate designs, such as their first light cruisers would be installed with 4 single gun turrets, but with the construction enabling a later installation of a wider barbette for a two gun turret. Engine spaces would be easily accessible for later upgrades with the diesel, high-pressure turbines or combined diesel and steam, whichever concept would win in the end to be determined. Germany would have two other instrumental contribution to the joint efforts leading the way in optics and gunnery computers for its allies and the development of high powered aircraft engines. The need for naval aviation for seen by all parties, but because of ToV Germany could not contribute directly. For this purpose the Italians became the main responsible for land based aviation (with Japan later starting to duplicate these efforts) and Japan for carrier based aviation. Germany would have a strategic R&D initiative for developing, producing and licensing powerful aircraft gasoline and diesel engines for it partners while it internally specialized in diesel powered sea planes that served civilian purposes.
Another aspect were Germany faced severe obstructions were in submarines. Here it was easily decided that Japan would go for the long range and Italy would focus on operations in the Mediterranean. Both Japan and Italy established a marine core, Italy looking heavily on future operations in Malta, Crete, Cyprus and eventually the Suez as the area where they would need to extend their reach. Inspired by German thinking on trade interdiction, Japan also started the development of very large submarines intended to resupply at sea in order to cut off British trade in the Indian Ocean.
Overall, the perhaps most important effects was the sharing of information, collaboration and competition. Many efforts were duplicated and the succesful testing of an ingenious hoist and partially automatic loading mechanism for Italian 150 mm DP guns inspired the Japanese to make a more effective one and attempt the same at higher calibers. Italian and Japanese competitions in torpedo development would become fierce. Germany again had issues with contributing to gun and other weapons development, but found an outlet in Sweden. Collaboration between Krup and Bofors lead to the development of a versatile 75 mm AA gun (and later the purely German 88 mm (this is OTL)) and a long-term collaboration between Krupp and Bofors on development of 75mm and below AA guns for the navy (TTL only). Eventually, during the mid 1930's, this work would result in the compact two gunned 75 m AA turret capable of 15 rpm per gun and the 4mm automatic aircraft gun that would dominate the medium size AA guns of the collaborating partners.
Jan 1st, 1927 to Dec 31st, 1930
I apologise for my almost total absence, my health and vision have gotten the better of me of late, and as such I have not done much of a job of getting and keeping this thread moving alone, nor focused on the time periods between the threadmark posts. I'll keep on keeping on, but obviously I failed to deliver a thread where folks get a good discussion, so next time, I'll remake the thread from scratch, and spend a bit more time laying out the ground rules.
I think the idea of keeping a threads discussion strictly between time periods is a good and doable idea, and using the feature of thread marked posts is a way of helping folks focus on the handful of years within each.
That being said, I didn't put in the effort and time to ride heard and keep things moving, and focused, so a remake will take place after this thread reaches WW2 in 1939.
So, the show must go on, but a second and better one will be developed for v2.0 this summer, but lets stumble forward a bit more, before we throw in the towel and restart, shall we?
1927.
By now, we see the Japanese getting started training up their carrier airgroups, and having decided to give the RN (and MN) some troubles to worry about, do to the lack of equal status post war, by helping the Germans circumvent all the various treaty restrictions, like opening gun works that are treaty banned for the Germans to do within Germany (but NOT in Japan), so after 4 years, Germany can now begin designing, building and testing large naval guns, up to 15" or 16" guns (or even larger), without Germany needing to (technically) break the terms of any of the harsh treaties imposed upon them, but instead happily avoid them altogether in many ways, not possible without a disaffected Japan taking a bit of revenge by making it possible for the Germans to have proscribed things.
So, with a slipway (or more than one, really) what kind of secret engine development can Germany carry out in utmost secrecy, away from prying British and French eyes? What kinds of submarines will the Weimar republic be secretly building in Japan, both armed and unarmed versions in 1927 - 1930? What naval guns will be developed by 1930?
Dornier got away with developing seaplanes historically by building flying boats on lake constance, Switzerland, for instance, so other treaty circumvented expatriate facilities have a historical basis for actually taking place, and in a thread where we are looking for the three Axis navies to be optimized for WW2, we must surely include such schemes within the realm of possibility (historically, we got lucky that this kind of thing was as limited as it was, else WW2 could easily have been worse than it was).
Here is what Wiki has to say about the Dornier Do X:
So, how much else would Germany, if given a chance to cooperate with the Japanese and build facilities within Japan, could we see starting to take shape after 4 years of negotiations, and hurried construction of facilities, shipping needed experts over there and what not now being up and running? Unlike Germany, Japan has a vast region of ocean distances to cover, and many underdeveloped islands within this territory that could use passenger service, freight hauling, and even military service aircraft in the long range search role? If Germany can develop and sell passenger seaplanes, might the Japanese be a market for such, even if on a limited scale? What about wider markets world wide later on?
ITTL, Germany would have some pilots that would be very experienced in operating long range aircraft, on extended flights over water, if a German civilian airline could be put into operation within Japanese territory, that couldn't but help to provide the RM/KM a pool of personnel that would be just right to train up for maritime patrol all the way up the Baltic and North seas, right? For the Italians, they are not treaty limited by the kind of long range seaplanes that they could develop domestically, but the Japanese market dwarf's Italy's own Mediterranean theater, and so a Pacific passenger market might just be possibility getting Italy and Japan used to co-develop seaplanes with one another.
As far as cargo flying boats, the same holds true, and perhaps even more so than the passenger planes, and if engineering projects can have construction equipment being flown into remote and undeveloped areas...
Also, if we posit some ability to fly in some limited equipment, say for landing fields in remote locations, where on earth could such an air-mobile air field construction service be of use? Obviously the Japanese empire could and would be greatly benefited by such, but what about other lands NOT part of either the British or French empires?
Just for an interesting thought experiment, let us explore the concept of a three way business partnership, where Germany, Italy, and Japan co-develop and operate a series of aircraft related businesses, that start off offering developing countries contracts to develop and expand airfield infrastructure, air travel/air transport, and run airliners for those nations? I'm thinking that Chile and Norway might just like the idea of seaplanes flying in engineers, equipment, and supplies attractive, and eventually some choice locations could end up as full blown airports for land based aircraft. If properly done, with contracts and such, the tri-aircraft companies could forsee land based planes as the better way to operate from such airbases, and position themselves to be the supplier/operators for an exclusive time period, and while land based planes can operate more cost effectively, they cannot help with the development of the infrastructure (and thus getting the follow on contracts) in the first place, whereas the seaplanes can.
Got a lot more to say, but old man needs ever more naps.
I think the idea of keeping a threads discussion strictly between time periods is a good and doable idea, and using the feature of thread marked posts is a way of helping folks focus on the handful of years within each.
That being said, I didn't put in the effort and time to ride heard and keep things moving, and focused, so a remake will take place after this thread reaches WW2 in 1939.
So, the show must go on, but a second and better one will be developed for v2.0 this summer, but lets stumble forward a bit more, before we throw in the towel and restart, shall we?
1927.
By now, we see the Japanese getting started training up their carrier airgroups, and having decided to give the RN (and MN) some troubles to worry about, do to the lack of equal status post war, by helping the Germans circumvent all the various treaty restrictions, like opening gun works that are treaty banned for the Germans to do within Germany (but NOT in Japan), so after 4 years, Germany can now begin designing, building and testing large naval guns, up to 15" or 16" guns (or even larger), without Germany needing to (technically) break the terms of any of the harsh treaties imposed upon them, but instead happily avoid them altogether in many ways, not possible without a disaffected Japan taking a bit of revenge by making it possible for the Germans to have proscribed things.
So, with a slipway (or more than one, really) what kind of secret engine development can Germany carry out in utmost secrecy, away from prying British and French eyes? What kinds of submarines will the Weimar republic be secretly building in Japan, both armed and unarmed versions in 1927 - 1930? What naval guns will be developed by 1930?
Dornier got away with developing seaplanes historically by building flying boats on lake constance, Switzerland, for instance, so other treaty circumvented expatriate facilities have a historical basis for actually taking place, and in a thread where we are looking for the three Axis navies to be optimized for WW2, we must surely include such schemes within the realm of possibility (historically, we got lucky that this kind of thing was as limited as it was, else WW2 could easily have been worse than it was).
Here is what Wiki has to say about the Dornier Do X:
So, how much else would Germany, if given a chance to cooperate with the Japanese and build facilities within Japan, could we see starting to take shape after 4 years of negotiations, and hurried construction of facilities, shipping needed experts over there and what not now being up and running? Unlike Germany, Japan has a vast region of ocean distances to cover, and many underdeveloped islands within this territory that could use passenger service, freight hauling, and even military service aircraft in the long range search role? If Germany can develop and sell passenger seaplanes, might the Japanese be a market for such, even if on a limited scale? What about wider markets world wide later on?
ITTL, Germany would have some pilots that would be very experienced in operating long range aircraft, on extended flights over water, if a German civilian airline could be put into operation within Japanese territory, that couldn't but help to provide the RM/KM a pool of personnel that would be just right to train up for maritime patrol all the way up the Baltic and North seas, right? For the Italians, they are not treaty limited by the kind of long range seaplanes that they could develop domestically, but the Japanese market dwarf's Italy's own Mediterranean theater, and so a Pacific passenger market might just be possibility getting Italy and Japan used to co-develop seaplanes with one another.
As far as cargo flying boats, the same holds true, and perhaps even more so than the passenger planes, and if engineering projects can have construction equipment being flown into remote and undeveloped areas...
Also, if we posit some ability to fly in some limited equipment, say for landing fields in remote locations, where on earth could such an air-mobile air field construction service be of use? Obviously the Japanese empire could and would be greatly benefited by such, but what about other lands NOT part of either the British or French empires?
Just for an interesting thought experiment, let us explore the concept of a three way business partnership, where Germany, Italy, and Japan co-develop and operate a series of aircraft related businesses, that start off offering developing countries contracts to develop and expand airfield infrastructure, air travel/air transport, and run airliners for those nations? I'm thinking that Chile and Norway might just like the idea of seaplanes flying in engineers, equipment, and supplies attractive, and eventually some choice locations could end up as full blown airports for land based aircraft. If properly done, with contracts and such, the tri-aircraft companies could forsee land based planes as the better way to operate from such airbases, and position themselves to be the supplier/operators for an exclusive time period, and while land based planes can operate more cost effectively, they cannot help with the development of the infrastructure (and thus getting the follow on contracts) in the first place, whereas the seaplanes can.
Got a lot more to say, but old man needs ever more naps.
marathag
Banned
OTL Germany shared the G.38 with the Japan. Instead, have Hugo Hunker's first dream get funded, the J.1000
I too have to wonder what aircraft developments of OTL, delayed as they were by the various "Screw You" treaties imposed upon Germany after WWI, could have come about sooner in TTL. If Germany and her comercial partners (Italy and Japan, and god knows who else) could develop passenger and airfreight seaplane based services in SE Asia, South America, and the Mediterranean, what other locations/partners could there have been, if the Axis nations had worked together from 1923 onwards?
One thing I am wondering about is, what kind of improved power plants might be developed if Germany is building passenger and freight seaplanes for use all over the world, in the 1920's and 1930's? Japan alone would be a great potential market, what with all there islands that need support/supplies in peacetime, let alone once WW2 kicks off. Norway has many fjords and freshwater lakes, and should prove a limited peacetime market, as well as a latter wartime operational theater, should they join the Axis do to alliance/invasion.
In peacetime, the coast of Chile might offer a growth market, where the Kriegsmarine could eventually benefit by inheriting 100's of skilled seaplane pilots/aircrew, so we should explore civilian seaplanes for what they could evolve into later on, with respect to all three axis navies.
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One question that others have raised is, just what could the German lay down in 1927 - 1930 warship wise? I had always just assumed that the OTL Deutschland class of three ships was what and when they could have done legally, but some posts here are raising thoughts that they could have done more ships?
I've got an idea for TTL Deutschland class, but first want to know how soon the first could be laid down, and also how many could be laid down, not that my idea is for anything like the OTL class...
I've got an idea for TTL Deutschland class, but first want to know how soon the first could be laid down, and also how many could be laid down, not that my idea is for anything like the OTL class...
Well as other have outlined, they could have laid down in total 8 modern light cruisers and 8 10000 tons ships. The problem was that it already in OTL was a big deal politically to lay down the 3 deutschlands. The social democrats were dead set against and won the election. You would need a political POD.
For the purpose of this thread maybe just assume they have the backing to build to the limites of ToV in the late 20's to mid 30's. I'll pick up my small piece with the assuption that they lay down 6 light cruisers in the 1927-28's time frame with combined diesel and steam and then 2 10000's per year in 1929-32.
On the CL's, what were the OTL restrictions, and how would those restrictions be tossed aside in this TL?
Continuing on the above.
What started as a purely naval services collaboration ended up as something akin to a political alliance between Germany, Italy and Japan in the second half of the 1920'. Adamant Italian support and British goodwill allowed Germany to exit the most humiliating parts of the ToV, allowing foreign expections on German soil, and soon saw the French pushed outside the Ruhr. In Germany, nationalist pride resurfaced and the center-right wing parties won the two elections from 1926-29. A staunch stand on lenient repayment schedules backed by American loans saw the German economy swell, and a limited rearmament resurged. These effects spilled over into Italy who tried to keep up on German technological progress and whom could benefit tremendously from the increased trade with their northern partners. The ability to landlock with their trading partners and Austrian political isolation saw the Italian support for the Anschluss with Germany in 1929 be a nationwide plesbicite. While Germany still abided by their repyment schedule according to the ToV, uncertainties only increased as to which part of the treaty that would still be upheld. One thing is for sure, the German navy had no intention of following the treaty in any ways although they paid lip service to it as long as they could.
This update just provide a political framework for the naval expansion. IOTL the D calss cruisers laid down in 1934 and planned during Weimar republic were originally referred to as improved Deutschland class ships, so you may now use your imagination. Also, I am in some need of help vis-a-vis the Italians and Japanese.