Opinions on an Irish TL.

[Revolutionary Todyo]

Right. This is my first attempt at a thread so please, bear with me.
I'm Irish and have a slight obsession with Brian Boru, Emperor of the Irish. So I decided to make a TL about him and his descendants. I was originally working on the idea with another guy on the alt history wiki, but he's stopped working on it so I've come here to try my own one.
This isn't the actual TL, I want to get ideas that I can work into a new plot.

Ideas so far
United Irish kingdom acts as counterweight to England. Several wars, both try to get Scotland etc.
Celtic Church annoys Pope a lot. Reformation in Ireland?
I like the idea of the Vikings uniting Scandanavia, a France to irelands England.

So ideas please.

 

[I Blame Communism]

Leaving aside the difficulties of establishing a stable and united kingdom in a sparsely-populated, isolated society without much infrastructure under pressure from much larger and more powerful neighbours (which are probably not insurmountable), such a kingdom wouldn't be a "counterweight" to England bar English demographic crisis. It's just too small, quite frankly. Ireland is a small, out of the way place which can't support that many people. England has more land, more people, a more favourable climate, more commodities, and a better position. It's just stronger.

I really doubt a united Irish kingdom would even be in a position to conquer Scotland.

 

[RMcD94]

What you want to try is a Celtic Kingdom with a Celtic Church, with Scandinavia and France helping out.

Scotland, Ireland, Wales, France and Scandinavia should be able to take down England.

 

[MNP]

Yes, even though in my TL Ireland actually has a sizable amount of land, it's only got about 1,500,000 on the actual island itself. If you want to gain stuff for Ireland you need to make them a commercial and maritime power.

Also wasn't the Celtic Church essentially dead by the 1000s?

As to what IBC said, well I gave the first Irish Emperor Iberian horses and crossbows by 900AD to tip the balance of power, but then the H.E.I.N. was a butterfly from the main PoD of a Umayyad Christian Spain.

 

[Thande]

Leaving aside the difficulties of establishing a stable and united kingdom in a sparsely-populated, isolated society without much infrastructure under pressure from much larger and more powerful neighbours (which are probably not insurmountable), such a kingdom wouldn't be a "counterweight" to England bar English demographic crisis. It's just too small, quite frankly. Ireland is a small, out of the way place which can't support that many people. England has more land, more people, a more favourable climate, more commodities, and a better position. It's just stronger.

I really doubt a united Irish kingdom would even be in a position to conquer Scotland.

Yes. However, if a united Ireland could be sustained, it could have a similar position to England/Great Britain as Portugal to Spain: unquestionably smaller and weaker neighbour, but still potent and organised enough to mostly keep its independence in the long run.

I haven't heard Brian Boru called 'emperor' before; the usual term seems to be High King, although I appreciate the definition there is somewhat a matter of opinion.

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

Its was different time, this isn't like the 12th Century where ireland is still in the Dark Ages and England holds the Angevin Empire. Boru came to power in the 10th/11th century (being killed in 1014) when the two nations were on quite equal footing.

England had been united barely a century, and that was disrupted by Cnut. Population would still have been quite low, though less isolated I must admit. But there are the Normans 50 years down the line and that would screw things up for a while.

Also Boru was quite a dynamic ruler, good general and we can guess that he was charasmatic as he managed to get the hundreds of cheiftains and mini-kings to swear loyalty to him.

Besides, as Ireland has never been in a situation where they are similar to England, it's harder to judge who would be the most powerful.

Also, there weren't any real threats to Ireland. France was still tiny and Spain was basically non-existant.

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

What you want to try is a Celtic Kingdom with a Celtic Church, with Scandinavia and France helping out.

Scotland, Ireland, Wales, France and Scandinavia should be able to take down England.

Its more the system of monasteries than a seperate church. The English actually invaded as the Pope (who was english at the time) wanted to bring Ireland in line with the dioceses of the Continent.

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

What you want to try is a Celtic Kingdom with a Celtic Church, with Scandinavia and France helping out.

Scotland, Ireland, Wales, France and Scandinavia should be able to take down England.

Well I don't actually want to take down England, they aren't being conquered just "castrated".

Though France will be a big help, but I suppose that depends on the Norman invasion really.

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

I haven't heard Brian Boru called 'emperor' before; the usual term seems to be High King, although I appreciate the definition there is somewhat a matter of opinion.

It was a title of his won invention, he was called "Imperator Scottorum" (emperor of the irish) in the Book of Armagh.

 

[MNP]

TBH I can't see how England proper, once constituted (i.e. all the south and maybe Wales) is not going to just stomp Ireland.

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

TBH I can't see how England proper, once constituted (i.e. all the south and maybe Wales) is not going to just stomp Ireland.

Well that really depends on the Normans and how organised the Irish are. The Normans would be far more likely to invade (they were an anti-social bunch), and if that happens they'd be fighting a proper army which would no how to use the terrain in proper battles (as oppossed to the guerilla warfare that they actually did).

If the Normans fail then I'd guess the Englsih wouldn't bother Ireland untill the 1300s. And that would give 300 years to modernise and catch up with the rest of Europe, with French help.

 

[Janprimus]

Like some other replies, I don't see Ireland as a counterweight to England, but I do see Ireland acting as a counterweight to Scotland. An independent Ireland certainly is possible. Ireland and Scotland probably will be rivals, which now and then will unite and ally with France against any English treat.
If Ireland succeeds in getting Scotland, it will most likely occur by dynastic means.

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

.
If Ireland succeeds in getting Scotland, it will most likely occur by dynastic means.

That's how Ireland got powerful in my old TL, union with Scotland. The wars with Scotland aren't huge, they're smaller. Like Irish occupation of the Outer Hebridies and raiding Glasgow etc.

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

The input is much appreciated by the way. I want to make my story realistic (though an Irish Empire is intended. What can I say, I'm a nationalist) and your all instrumental in ironing out plot holes.

Hows this to explain Ireland being more powerful than Britain.

Untill the 14th Century Ireland is going to essentially be a French protectorate, with a French equipped and funded army to keep an eye on the English. Eventually there is a royal union with Scotland, after which Ireland will start to stretch its muscles. I'm not intending Ireland to be partucularly powerful untill the 1600s.

Hows that sound?

 

[stevep]

The input is much appreciated by the way. I want to make my story realistic (though an Irish Empire is intended. What can I say, I'm a nationalist) and your all instrumental in ironing out plot holes.

Hows this to explain Ireland being more powerful than Britain.

Untill the 14th Century Ireland is going to essentially be a French protectorate, with a French equipped and funded army to keep an eye on the English. Eventually there is a royal union with Scotland, after which Ireland will start to stretch its muscles. I'm not intending Ireland to be partucularly powerful untill the 1600s.

Hows that sound?

Todyo1798

If your presuming France gets united and powerful that early its far more likely that England and Ireland will be de-facto allies supporting each other against French domination.

The key point would be if events butterfly the Norman conquest of England. If so then unlikely to be serious clashes between England and Ireland as the two were on reasonably good terms. Also the English state wasn't noticeably expansionist at the time and mainly concerned with protecting its borders against more aggressive neighbours.

Steve

 

[Fletch]

The input is much appreciated by the way. I want to make my story realistic (though an Irish Empire is intended. What can I say, I'm a nationalist) and your all instrumental in ironing out plot holes.

Hows this to explain Ireland being more powerful than Britain.

Untill the 14th Century Ireland is going to essentially be a French protectorate, with a French equipped and funded army to keep an eye on the English. Eventually there is a royal union with Scotland, after which Ireland will start to stretch its muscles. I'm not intending Ireland to be partucularly powerful untill the 1600s.

Hows that sound?

If Ireland remains united there are some major implications on Scottish history. Edward Bruce doesn't pop over the sea to get killed in an attempt to liberate them. This means the Bruces remain as Kings and the Stewarts never rise to become Kings of Scotland.

I can't see how Ireland and Scotland would end up at war though. England would remain the dominant power in the islands, which would leave the Scots and the Irish in a position having to ally with each other, alongside the French to survive as independent states.

It may change slightly the traditional Scottish trade routes which were on the east, to the Dutch, the French, the Germans and the Poles, thus altering Scottish demographics.

Thinking about it, a major change could be in Wales. Irish support of Glendower could be the tipping point to help Wales becoming an independent state. This would change the power structure in the Isles, making England even less dominant, thus rising tensions and making the reformation less secure.

This also raises the question over the reformation in Ireland. Iotl, the reformation was hindered by being seen as not Irish. Ittl, this would not be a factor. We could well see an Irish John Knox.

A Calvinist Isles could be the outcome!

 

[I Blame Communism]

A Calvanist Isles could be the outcome!

Nae bishop!

Fun as the idea may be, this will have butterflies well before the Renaissance Popes and reformation; you raise a lot of very good points, though.

 

[Janprimus]

Todyo1798

If your presuming France gets united and powerful that early its far more likely that England and Ireland will be de-facto allies supporting each other against French domination.

The key point would be if events butterfly the Norman conquest of England. If so then unlikely to be serious clashes between England and Ireland as the two were on reasonably good terms. Also the English state wasn't noticeably expansionist at the time and mainly concerned with protecting its borders against more aggressive neighbours.

Steve

I'm not totally convinced, because England has the potential to dominate the region, so Ireland may on occasion support France if it feels threatened by England.
IMHO it is far more likely that Ireland may sometimes switch to another alliance if it suits their goals. Another thing is that from an Irish point of view French or English domination is just as bad, however France is further away...

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

Ok so lets see.

France needs to be looked into.
Bruce dynasty in Scotland.
Possible Welsh puppet state.
Butterflies???

 

[Tyr]

I'd have to agree the best you can hope for with Ireland is it being recognised as a civilized part of Europe and holding its independance (which would be quite a bit better than its OTL position). Its never going to challenge England.
England (or rather SE England, the rest is just opressed peoples ), its better land, bigger, more resources and better placed.
Even if we were to assume Ireland was amazing land that could compete with England its still got a bad position on the periphery of Europe with England blocking its way to the Netherlands where it would make its trade money.

Also; Ireland is never going to gain Scotland.
Even if its a Irishman inheriting Scotland the same will happen as with a Scot inheriting England- he moved over to the better kingdom and it becomes more Scotland occupying Ireland than the reverse.