Operation Sea Lion (1974 Sandhurst Wargame)

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Not James Stockdale, Mar 8, 2019.

  1. Lucarionape Well-Known Member

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    I agree in part with Ian, but he did over step the bounds of reality with his ability to counter factual information presented to him by trying to twist or ignore what we said.
    Edit:
    Note I have never read your timeline so have no idea what he means, just that I think that Glenn really believed in what he was saying, to the point where he’d turn a blind eye to all he couldn’t rationalise.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2019
  2. Ian_W Well-Known Member

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    His idea that an early airborne assault could have taken the Isle of Wight is correct - heck, the Allied high command was worried about paratroopers into England into 1943.

    Where he stuffed up was the ability of supporting this assault, and therefore preventing a British counter-attack.

    That said *shrug* I've seen worse on this board. Calbear's AANW, for example, completely ignore that more time would have done to the Atlantic Wall.
     
  3. Fred the Great Well-Known Member

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    What work? I've never seem him demonstrate any research worthy of the word. On that basis, a rather rude comment towards CalBear, who wrote a rather long and detailed timeline.
     
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  4. CalBear Your Ursus arctos californicus Moderator Moderator Donor

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    While this should probably be in the HoI, I'll address it here. The problem, and it is a long term issue, one I probably should have quashed years ago, is that he argues in bad faith. He move goalposts up and down the field, asks for absolutely ludicrous amounts of data or information, and then ignores it if it doesn't fit into his world view, all to simply wear out others in the discussion. Worse, he ruins threads because everyone simply gets into endless debates with him, despite the fact that anyone who pays the slightest attention can she is simply screwing with everyone. I've long since lost count of the number of reports he's generated with literal years worth of dancing right up to the knife's edge in what sure looks like efforts to draw other off sides.

    At some point it had to stop. This is the point. I hope he takes this to heart, he could be a very valuable member if he changes his style. Right now he's the cat who spends all afternoon sitting on the other side of the gate simply to drive the dogs nuts. That is one plow that won't scour any more.
     
  5. Zheng He Well-Known Member

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    Right now he's the cat who spends all afternoon sitting on the other side of the gate simply to drive the dogs nuts.

    I have two beagles who resemble that remark...
     
  6. CalBear Your Ursus arctos californicus Moderator Moderator Donor

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    Significant difference is that AANW was never designed or intended to be a serious factual discussion. It was a purely speculative T/L, yes one with a lot of research and solid work in it, but speculative nonetheless regarding a very different ATL.

    As far as AANW, I spent considerable time discussing reasons for each question regarding issues brought up (including several PAGES discussing why the British hadn't upgunned a tank earlier than I had them doing it) but I never claimed that the results were inevitable outside of author fiat. Indeed, I flat out stated early on in the T/L that I had to use a very unlikely POD or two in order to set up the rest of the ATL.
     
  7. Ian_W Well-Known Member

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    I've read enough stuff from Gudestein and Glenn to determine the difference between long, detailed and good, thank you.

    And for the record, I'm not being rude to CalBear. I'm being rude about what he wrote.
     
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  8. Ian_W Well-Known Member

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    Horseshit.

    You came in with a pre-determined opinion and went 'No. I'm right' a lot.
     
  9. Fred the Great Well-Known Member

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    So, out of curiosity, can you point me to the posts by Glenn that were the product of some amount of work?

    I get you don't like the idea of people piling on, so to speak, but let's not pretend this person has actually invested much effort to back up his unconventional thinking.


    Not buying that distinction. CalBear's timeline was entirely irrelevant to the discussion.
     
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  10. Fred the Great Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, not being rude at all here.
     
  11. Ian_W Well-Known Member

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    Bluntly, you're doing what Calbear banned Glenn for - asking other people to do the work.
     
  12. Fred the Great Well-Known Member

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    I thought it was a kick, but anyway. No, this is rather different. You've suggested he put work into his postings. I am genuinely curious as to why you hold that view because it is contrary to what I've read in this thread.
     
  13. CalBear Your Ursus arctos californicus Moderator Moderator Donor

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    Of course I did. That is why it was an ATL meant to discuss how things would have happened in Europe if the Reich won. It then wound up being a full out fictional history of a war that never happened.
     
  14. Not James Stockdale Those Protestants... Up to no good, as usual

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    @CalBear

    Now that this debate about the Isle of Wright is over, can you remove the poll in case something new comes up?
     
  15. CalBear Your Ursus arctos californicus Moderator Moderator Donor

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    Deleted per request.
     
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  16. Paradox-less Lord of Weá, Defender of Weónes

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    You're getting it mixed up. You're the one who claimed Glenn actually put in the effort instead of switching the goalposts, cherry picking and flat out ignoring when people showed him he was wrong. So you should show why you disagree.

    Glenn asked people to do the research for him, when it was obvious that he wasn't going to pay attention and only pick out the parts that fit his theory. He was the one claiming that Wightlion would work, so obviously he was the one who had to provide the evidence as to why Wightlion would work.
     
  17. DaveBC Well-Known Member

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    Apr 26, 2014
    Aw, but mom... I guess this means people aren't going to be allowed to research my very reasonable "hop the Solent" and "zerg rush the Thames" strategies for me either but they are war winners I assure you.

    Well said. Although I try to learn a couple new and actually informative things every time a Sea Lion thread comes up, as a community we have invested a tremendous amount of energy over the years flogging the deadest of dead horses.
     
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  18. PhilKearny Free Bill Cameron! Free TFSmith121, too!

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    I love this thread.

    I just wish that folks tearing apart and ridiculing Glenn239’s absurdities would expend the same effort in debunking some of the equally absurd (or, sometimes even more absurd) “Save the Empire/The UK does better” themed threads that inundate the board, drowning out much of the more interesting content.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2019
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  19. CalBear Your Ursus arctos californicus Moderator Moderator Donor

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    Something I need to perhaps make more clear. (apologies to the OP for dragging this out)

    If this had been Glenn's ATL, as is the case with most "Empire survives" T/L I would have simply told folks who were complaining to simply stop reading, at least unless/until it totally jumped the shark (as has happened a few times in threads like you are describing) and then asked the OP to A) move back to "plausible" or B) if they would like the thread moved to Writers (where frankly plenty of these T/L should go) or, if it has really jumped an entire inlet full of sharks C) ASB. Only after that, assuming the OP doesn't chose any of the three option's would I move the thread.

    Problem here is that THIS WAS NOT GLENN'S THREAD. He, as has happened more than once with simple WI Sea Lion questions, managed to hijack it and turn it into a debate about the entire Sea Lion scenario and then argued in bad faith about it.

    Further issues with the specific action should be taken to the HoI.

    Again, @Not James Stockdale, sorry for the interruption.
     
  20. Zheng He Well-Known Member

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    Aug 3, 2013
    And it is a well put together ATL if a bit dystopian...
     
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