Deleted member 94680
We just can’t get enough of that sweet, sweet Sealion goodness. *rictus grin* No Sir, we really can’t... get... enough.
My phone now autocapitalises Sealion it’s got that bad. *begins to weep gently*
Operation Sea Lion (1974 Sandhurst Wargame)
- Thread starter Not James Stockdale
- Start date
We just can’t get enough of that sweet, sweet Sealion goodness. *rictus grin* No Sir, we really can’t... get... enough.
My phone now autocapitalises Sealion it’s got that bad. *begins to weep gently*
I'm just waiting for Hollywood to come out with ...
Sea Lion: The Movie!
Just when you thought it was safe to dip your toes back in the AH.com forums, the Unmentionable Sea Mammal rears its ugly head again as it rises from the depths of Necro-Land to infest the forum once again.
You'll never look at another thread on AH.com the same way again!
Coming this summer!
Sea Lion: The Unmentionable Sea Mammal Strikes Back!
Sea Lion: The Movie!
Just when you thought it was safe to dip your toes back in the AH.com forums, the Unmentionable Sea Mammal rears its ugly head again as it rises from the depths of Necro-Land to infest the forum once again.
You'll never look at another thread on AH.com the same way again!
Coming this summer!
Sea Lion: The Unmentionable Sea Mammal Strikes Back!
POW's were virtually adopted in WW2 in England. My mum's cousin was dating a German POW in 1944. He would come round to my Grandparents house for tea. He worked on a farm and had to be back by 22:00 Sun - Thur nights and midnight on Fri & Sat nights.One thing to consider is the cost of housing, clothing and feeding all the POW's, even if only 10% are captured it's a lot. Plus many would be youung and away from home for the first time, not the hardened veterans of the later war years.
Adopt a German today, "Your Country Needs Them!"?
Edit, just thought I'd call granddad and ask him about the POW camp at the end of my road. Nope He's been dead for 17 years.
We need to make this a trilogy. The last film should be Sea Lion 3: Wrath of the Fatherland.
Also Barbarossa: The Alternate Ending, a thoughtful, meditative piece in which a German corporal named Glenn of the 239th Division, laying dying in the snows outside Moscow, looks back fondly over his life and wishes he had gone to England instead. The viewer travels with Glenn through his reminiscences learning to swim in the English Channel and also sharpshooting while bouncing on a trampoline.
Deleted member 94680
Then, just as we think he’s dead, it fades to PRESENT DAY and we see his aged version living the grand life in an alpine-style villa on the cliffs overlooking the beaches of Reichsprotektorat Gibraltar in the glorious sunshine
Well, I might as well add in my $0.02, while I'm at it.
First off, Operation Sea Lion won't work. Why? Because it absolutely can't.
Let's put two points first.
Germany does not have the aerial capability to put down the RAF for good.
Germany does not have the naval capability to even put a dent in the Royal Navy's overwhelming superiority.
Now, moving on to alternatives.
The Isle of Wight? Well, much like the infamous Friesian Islands thread, this is an objective that is within range of mainland artillery, also serving the purpose of telegraphing your next targets, making it a horrendous target that will most likely be reclaimed within two weeks.
Gibraltar? Well, for starters, let's assume that Hitler suddenly developed an addiction to drinking lead paint. To consider attacking Spain, you'd have to divert manpower and resources from Sea Lion, most importantly, fuel, which will undoubtedly exacerbate the fuel problems of the Germans. But the Heer will also be in a terrible logistic situation, since Spain has been thoroughly wrecked and its rail network is in shambles. But here's another issue. If you attack Gibraltar after France, then you risk missing the window for Sea Lion, because if Sea Lion wanted to have even the slightest sliver of a chance, it would have to launch before the conditions in the Channel made it impossible. Oh, and you also end up with more than likely massive famine in Spain, that will force the Germans to divert food there. In addition to losing the very few resources that the then-neutral Spain could get to Germany, since Spain acted as a conduit of goods to Germany, making it far more useful as a neutral than as an enemy that would doubtlessly inflict some casualties that Germany will rue by the time Zhukov comes a-knockin', or even an ally, since Spanish operations inevitably would have had to rely on German supplies, most importantly, fuel. Which wouldn't help, seeing as Germany was going through fuel fast, draining their own reserves and the captured French fuel reserves.
What's stopping the Germans from launching a second Sea Lion in 1941 if they fail in 1940? The very same thing that stopped them the first time. The Royal Navy. Only this time, the Germans' condition will be much worse, due to having suffered the utter annhilation of their makeshift landing craft. Can't they make more, you ask? Sure, but at the cost of negatively impacting the civilian economy and taking badly needed resources from a U-Boot or some other weapon that's far more vital than a ship that's doomed to end up in the bottom of the English Channel, anyway. Because, procuring materials for landing ships will inevitably take resources from an ongoing production.
It's not comparable to Normandy, because the Allies set this up for years, having naval and aerial supremacy, with Germany having neither. It's not comparable to Barbarossa, because the Soviets are a continental power that are on the same landmass as the Germans, as opposed to the British Isles. It's not comparable to the Pacific theatre, because it is a whole different animal. It's not even comparable to Crete, because Crete was the Germans against a less than well-equipped force(understatement, I know), and even then it was a close-run affair.
Now, to the main event.
The river barges are flat-out death traps in the English Channel. A near miss could end up in their sinking. The mere wake of a destroyer could probably make them capsize. The Kriegsmarine can't provide naval cover for the invasion force because Britannia rules the waves. Submarines are a no-go from the get-go, because they need room to maneuver and the shallow waters of the Channel make it a very bad idea. So the whole support for the operation falls to the Luftwaffe. But if you want it to fight the RAF, bomb London, support the invasion and attack the Royal Navy, this will end up in these tasks being done badly, since it can't do all of them effectively, so aircraft losses will start to pile on, leaving Germany in a worse strategic position post-Sea Lion.
The river barges are slow, unmoving targets that will take...what? Roughly 48 hours to get to their landing zones, depending on the tides. While the RAF will certainly not be the killing blow for them, it can certainly attack the invasion force throughout these 2 or so days, which will certainly not be good for the men stuck on those death traps called barges, because this kind of attack is sure to diminish their fighting capability.
The Luftwaffe against the RAF? Difficult enough for the Germans as is.
The Kriegsmarine versus the Royal Navy? Laughable.
Operation Sea Lion? Unfeasible.
There, the dead equine has been struck once more.
First off, Operation Sea Lion won't work. Why? Because it absolutely can't.
Let's put two points first.
Germany does not have the aerial capability to put down the RAF for good.
Germany does not have the naval capability to even put a dent in the Royal Navy's overwhelming superiority.
Now, moving on to alternatives.
The Isle of Wight? Well, much like the infamous Friesian Islands thread, this is an objective that is within range of mainland artillery, also serving the purpose of telegraphing your next targets, making it a horrendous target that will most likely be reclaimed within two weeks.
Gibraltar? Well, for starters, let's assume that Hitler suddenly developed an addiction to drinking lead paint. To consider attacking Spain, you'd have to divert manpower and resources from Sea Lion, most importantly, fuel, which will undoubtedly exacerbate the fuel problems of the Germans. But the Heer will also be in a terrible logistic situation, since Spain has been thoroughly wrecked and its rail network is in shambles. But here's another issue. If you attack Gibraltar after France, then you risk missing the window for Sea Lion, because if Sea Lion wanted to have even the slightest sliver of a chance, it would have to launch before the conditions in the Channel made it impossible. Oh, and you also end up with more than likely massive famine in Spain, that will force the Germans to divert food there. In addition to losing the very few resources that the then-neutral Spain could get to Germany, since Spain acted as a conduit of goods to Germany, making it far more useful as a neutral than as an enemy that would doubtlessly inflict some casualties that Germany will rue by the time Zhukov comes a-knockin', or even an ally, since Spanish operations inevitably would have had to rely on German supplies, most importantly, fuel. Which wouldn't help, seeing as Germany was going through fuel fast, draining their own reserves and the captured French fuel reserves.
What's stopping the Germans from launching a second Sea Lion in 1941 if they fail in 1940? The very same thing that stopped them the first time. The Royal Navy. Only this time, the Germans' condition will be much worse, due to having suffered the utter annhilation of their makeshift landing craft. Can't they make more, you ask? Sure, but at the cost of negatively impacting the civilian economy and taking badly needed resources from a U-Boot or some other weapon that's far more vital than a ship that's doomed to end up in the bottom of the English Channel, anyway. Because, procuring materials for landing ships will inevitably take resources from an ongoing production.
It's not comparable to Normandy, because the Allies set this up for years, having naval and aerial supremacy, with Germany having neither. It's not comparable to Barbarossa, because the Soviets are a continental power that are on the same landmass as the Germans, as opposed to the British Isles. It's not comparable to the Pacific theatre, because it is a whole different animal. It's not even comparable to Crete, because Crete was the Germans against a less than well-equipped force(understatement, I know), and even then it was a close-run affair.
Now, to the main event.
The river barges are flat-out death traps in the English Channel. A near miss could end up in their sinking. The mere wake of a destroyer could probably make them capsize. The Kriegsmarine can't provide naval cover for the invasion force because Britannia rules the waves. Submarines are a no-go from the get-go, because they need room to maneuver and the shallow waters of the Channel make it a very bad idea. So the whole support for the operation falls to the Luftwaffe. But if you want it to fight the RAF, bomb London, support the invasion and attack the Royal Navy, this will end up in these tasks being done badly, since it can't do all of them effectively, so aircraft losses will start to pile on, leaving Germany in a worse strategic position post-Sea Lion.
The river barges are slow, unmoving targets that will take...what? Roughly 48 hours to get to their landing zones, depending on the tides. While the RAF will certainly not be the killing blow for them, it can certainly attack the invasion force throughout these 2 or so days, which will certainly not be good for the men stuck on those death traps called barges, because this kind of attack is sure to diminish their fighting capability.
The Luftwaffe against the RAF? Difficult enough for the Germans as is.
The Kriegsmarine versus the Royal Navy? Laughable.
Operation Sea Lion? Unfeasible.
There, the dead equine has been struck once more.
With you for most of it but this is beyond the pale. Glenn and I have put a lot of thought into the Isle of Wight over multiple years now and I insist it receive due consideration.
Yes it is counterintuitive, like all the great strategies. Yes, there are pros and cons to everything. But this one has merit. The Isle of Wight is the thinking man's Sea Lion. No, your grizzled sergeant or logistics officer with too many years in service will pooh-pooh it, but a man of action up to date on the best theories of warfare, like a newly minted second lieutenant, I'm sure is much more likely to agree with me.
I mean, sure there are disadvantages, but just think of the advantages:
1.) It's an island already, so a beachhead here is way more easily defended than one in England itself.
2.) The experience you get "cutting your teeth" on this first amphibious invasion can be used to better plan the main event a few months later when you get ready to "hop the Solent" into southern England.
3.) It's only a few miles from Portsmouth, so crack German units can pop over for night raids and bamboozle the Royal Navy.
4.) A good invasion needs a port, and there is one conveniently located on the southern side at Ventnor, complete with what looks like a breakwater you could use to shelter the barges if there's a storm.
Bonus: because of its size, Ventnor is probably only lightly defended, which is more than you can say for a lot of other ports.
It also does nothing when it comes to what truly would matter in this scenario. Knocking Britain out of the war.
Assuming that the RAF does bugger-all against them, mainland and Royal Navy artillery don't just pummel them into oblivion?
Now you're just messing with me.
So instead of Ostend, Calais, Dieppe and Boulogne...Ventnor. Wut?
Where does the giant towed wooden badger built on the Frisian Islands come in?
Nazi coal. Tis the answer to all things Wehraboo. It gives them oil, it gives them Wooden Badgers!
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Ramontxo
Donor
The British have no Stukas (aside from a few in the RN), so they will do considerably worse than the LW at attacking ships.[/QUOTE/]
Sorry to have put the image inside your quote. Either my phone hates me or my Google lore is quite quite bad (both I suppose)
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[Werhaboo] Liber gott! Are you suggesting that Der Englander can do anything my beloved Notzi's can do!? Perhaps even better in some cases! VERBOTEN! VERBOTEN! DAS IST VERBOTEN!!!!!!! *makes kissy faces towards a picture of Guderian* Do not worry my love, I will never let them say bad things about you!
Deleted member 94680
Just out of interest, how many Stuka attacks damaged a battleship to the point of its being unable to escape engagement?