One hour changed history in 1940

Hello I am new here, it was a bit difficult to join this forum, but finally I am here. I always wanted to share some historical "choke points" with others. I call these coke points, because history sometimes culminates in events, where if one of multiple decisions have happened differently, we would be in a completely different world. Some events are a bit more complex (a hundred or more variable), and others are simple enough.[sorry for my English].

Everything you read here happened in real life.

We are in 1940, the Kingdom of Hungary. (I don't want to explain trivial, well known, or easily accessible information, so sometimes I just post link to events.)

A brief explanation: Hungary lost 2/3-s if her territory after WW1, even to Austria which was on the same losing side. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Trianon

This left a bitter taste in the mouth of all Hungarians, especially the military. By the time of Hitler's rise to power, revisionism in Hungary was supported by almost 100% of the population. Obviously the government communicated these demands subtly or not so subtly to the neighboring Little Entente states, straining the relations.

The First Vienna Award, and the retaking of Transcarpathia mostly resolved the situation with Czecho-Slovakia, and Hungary was not in a position to start open aggression against Yugoslavia, the territorial integrity of Austria was also firm, since it was part of the Third Reich by then.

Thus remained Romania, whom relations were most hostile with. Romania received the largest bulk of territory, Hungarian population, natural resources and historic sites from Hungary in 1920.

The Hungarian Diaspora sent 103 petitions about human right violations to the League of Nations, half of which came from Transylvania. These were largely ignored, this and the Romanian refusal to even discuss these questions, further strengthened the cause of the revisionists.

After Hungary's "new" territorial acquisition in the north, and the German-Soviet invasion of Poland, Romania made some significant mobilizations, in answer to this Hungary ordered the partial mobilization of the army, and ordering full alert at the border. German diplomacy however prevented an armed conflict.

After he successful German attack against France, Romania partially mobilized, and 1.5 million strong contingent was sent to Transylvania. Hungary sent several corps to the border (the 13th, 27th of May). At this time Romania migrated further and further towards the Axis, halting the Hungarian plans.

On June 26th the Soviet Union demanded Bessarabia and Bukovina from Romania, and offered joint operations to Hungary, which was refused.

Later the Hungarian leadership decided that it is sound to cooperation with the Soviets, ordered full mobilization and sent the army to the border.

Hungary moved 550000 men to the border by July 13. The I., II., IV., and VI. corps making up the 1. Army were led by Nagy Vilmos. On the right were Jány Gusztáv with the III. and V. corps (2. Army.), and on the left flank were the 3. Army consisting VII. and VIII. corps under the leadership of Gorondy-Novák Elemér. Also the most modern and best-equipped mechanized unit, "Rapid Corps" were stationed in Transcarpathia.

The Romanians outnumbered the Hungarians, and also had more advanced weapons since the Treaty of Trianon severely handicapped the Hungarian military. However because of the long mobilization without actual fighting, distrust in officers, and the spreading of conflicting extremist ideologies moral was especially low. It also seemed that the Romanian economy couldn't sustain a long war.

The main strength of the Romanians were the Carol line, with 450000 soldiers, 270 tanks and 330 planes.

On the 26th of July, in Salzburg, at the German-Romanian meeting, Germany put heavy pressure on the Romanians to negotiate with Hungary a new, revised border. Despite this tensions have risen, and several border skirmishes occurred (numbering 72), mostly initiated by Romanians. Both parties delayed negotiations, leading to further tensions.

Talks between the 16th and 24th of August brought no solution, so the Hungarian leadership decided to solve the conflict by the means of war. One day before the end of negotiations, the main headquarters sent the instructions called "Guidelines for the initiation of military operations against Romania", to every commander.

The Hungarian forces would had to start the offensive at dawn, on the 28th of August.

However one hour before the attack, the news came to the Hungarians, that the Romanian ambassador in Berlin delivered his government's decision, to have the Axis powers resolve the situation, leading to the Second Vienna Award.

-----

What if...

The ambassador were late?
Or the news were late to Hungary?

Just one hour, and the joint Soviet-Hungarian attack would have sealed the faith of the Romanian oil fields, the Balkans, and maybe the whole war would have been entirely different.

What do you think?
 
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Yo reggelt, Kivanok! :)

Damn. I have no idea how plausible this is, but, wow. In August of 1940, war breaks out between the Soviets and Hungary vs Romania?

My first thought is that Germany would immediately over run Hungary to protect Ploisti. Or possibly side with the Magyars, move through, and seize the oil fields.

Would the Soviets do better against the Romanians than they had the Finns? Would the Soviets say "Lets you and him fight" and sit back and watch?
 
Üdvözlök minden Magyart!

As I have said, the "divergence" happens, if the Romanian ambassador is late to Berlin with one hour, or the news of the Romanian compliance of border changes is late to Budapest with one hour.

All of the other above parts happened in Hungary. The question is not whether the Hungarian leadership would conduct a joint operation with the Soviet Union, because it already made the preparations to do that (this isn't an alliance, it's like the joint German-Soviet invasion of Poland). This is not fiction, everything you read above is true, it was just one hour.

The question is what would happened, if they hadn't stopped the attack?
 
It does sound fascinating. Am I wrong Romania & Germany had a deal at this time? For Germany to get Romanian oil? So this would piss of the Germans rather mightily, wouldn't it?:eek:
Torraqe said:
Nobody is interested?
You do need to be a bit more patient...

And be aware, sometimes you just don't get anybody interested. (I've had all of one thread I started go over 5000 views...:eek:)
 
Nobody is interested?
I am interested. I've always had a soft spot for Hungary, and feel Trianon was a pretty bad deal. I mean, they even lost territory to Austria!

On the other hand, I don't really know enough to make any meaningful comment.
 
I am interested. I've always had a soft spot for Hungary, and feel Trianon was a pretty bad deal. I mean, they even lost territory to Austria!

On the other hand, I don't really know enough to make any meaningful comment.

Well, at least the Burgenland was three quarters German (and less than 10% Hungarian).

Some of the other areas lost at Trianon were much more egregious.
 
I think even Bulgaria might be on the same side as Hungary (they also had some border issues with Romania).
I wonder what reaction might be in other neighbouring countries, thought.
 
I think even Bulgaria might be on the same side as Hungary (they also had some border issues with Romania).
I wonder what reaction might be in other neighbouring countries, thought.

In 1940 the Germans and Soviets where some kinde of allies but this scenario has the potential to shake up the alliances present at that time. If the war happened then the major battles of WW2 would be in the balacans and not on russian land. I can see the Yugoslavs entering the war on Romanian side. Even the slovaks would attack. So one one hand we will have Hungary, Bulgaria and Russia and on the other hand Romania, Yugoslavia, Slovakia and maybe Greece. The Germans are the wild card here. Hungary would loose for the first few weeks but after that the russian superiority would show.
 
Hitler goes into one of his most apoplectic rages at the Hungarian ambassador. Screaming that if the Hungarians do not immediately withdraw to their own borders he will smash them out of existence.....or something like that;)

There is no way that Hitler is going to stand idly by and allow the Romanian oilfieds to fall under Russian domination.

I suspect that the Russian offer of joint co-oeration was only meant in regards of taking the respective provinces, not partitioning Roumania. I don't believe that Stalin would have wished to risk war with Hitler at this point in time. Unless ofc you have sources that explicitly state the nature of the proposed alliance and its proposed militaery outcome?
 
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Grey Wolf

Donor
I remember Italy was pressing its own interests in Romania, but I can't remember whether these are demands ON Romania, or demands siding with Romania over issues in Danubian navigation and control

Hitler is probably going to get the equivalent to his pre-Barbarossa Balkan moment here, but how its going to play out is confuddling!

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Well, at least the Burgenland was three quarters German (and less than 10% Hungarian).
Some of the other areas lost at Trianon were much more egregious.
That's true. It just strikes me that Trianon was very hypocritical, even compared to some of the other post WWI settlements. If self determination hurt Hungary, and helped those surrounding it, then self determination was the mantra. If, on the other hand, self determination would see Hungarian claims trump those of others, then simple victor's justice was applied.

So one one hand we will have Hungary, Bulgaria and Russia and on the other hand Romania, Yugoslavia, Slovakia and maybe Greece. The Germans are the wild card here.
I agree with your assessment. Bold added because, as Grey Wolf says, Mussolini could well throw his hat into the ring. It may be ignored, or thrown right back at him, depending on where it lands.
 
Well, at least the Burgenland was three quarters German (and less than 10% Hungarian).

Some of the other areas lost at Trianon were much more egregious.

This is just a reply to a comment, I don't really want for the thread to take a direction exclusively towards the Treaty of Trianon, just in cases if it suppliments the main question.

Well yes, but the voting they used in Sopron was organized by the Entente only, because of the heroic Hungarian resistance (mostly by students), otherwise there would have been a a corridor connectig Czechoslovakia, and Yogoslavia, making a united Slavland. The purpose of this corridor was to entirely separate Austria and Hungary, so they can never unite again.

Important to note, that without Germans (beside the Hungarians) voting for Hungary, the territory wouldn't be part of Hungary today. Such voting system was proposed by Hungary later, however it was rejected due to political reasons (the Entente feared a weakened Little Entente, thus no counter weight against Germany or now communist Russia).

A bit paranoid move, if we take into account that Austria-Hungary had the most out-dated military, and economy. Also keep in mind that technically Austria "started" the war, since the ministry of war was not combined, however they lost minimal territory (both economically and by native population), compared to Hungary. This is due to multiple reasons, one of them is the professional Austrian, Czech, Serb and Romanian diplomacy and propaganda.

Here is the map of the planned corridor:

168.gif


And the originally planned border changes (if you look at these carefully you can see, that the borders of the future Little Entente states sometimes overlap each other, this is because the Entente made separate secret treaties with each state, or future state officials)

hat_r_1.jpg


hat_r_3.jpg


hat_r_2.jpg


A composit image of those maps, beside the actual borders according to the Treaty of Trianon (the red color represent Hungarian population at that time living outside of the new borders):

hat_r_5.jpg
 
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I think even Bulgaria might be on the same side as Hungary (they also had some border issues with Romania).
I wonder what reaction might be in other neighbouring countries, thought.

Bulgaria would definitely take partin in the invasion, however in real life there were no such preparations. They received some territory from Romania (parts of Dobruja in the Treaty of Craiova, in 1941).
 
In 1940 the Germans and Soviets where some kinde of allies but this scenario has the potential to shake up the alliances present at that time. If the war happened then the major battles of WW2 would be in the balacans and not on russian land. I can see the Yugoslavs entering the war on Romanian side. Even the slovaks would attack. So one one hand we will have Hungary, Bulgaria and Russia and on the other hand Romania, Yugoslavia, Slovakia and maybe Greece. The Germans are the wild card here. Hungary would loose for the first few weeks but after that the russian superiority would show.

Well I don't think any full scale war would have happened, between Hungary and its neighbours, beside Romania. Germany was not ready for a war with Russia at that time, and Romania was not part of the Axis. Slovakia doesn't had the resources, or manpower to oppose Hungary in the longterm. While Yugoslavia also had territorial issues with Romania (they probably would have remained neutral).
 
That's true. It just strikes me that Trianon was very hypocritical, even compared to some of the other post WWI settlements. If self determination hurt Hungary, and helped those surrounding it, then self determination was the mantra. If, on the other hand, self determination would see Hungarian claims trump those of others, then simple victor's justice was applied.


I agree with your assessment. Bold added because, as Grey Wolf says, Mussolini could well throw his hat into the ring. It may be ignored, or thrown right back at him, depending on where it lands.

1. I agree, it was due to fear that if Hungary have had all the territories containing Hungarian populations; important mines, and strategic places would have gone from the Little Entente, making them even more weaker, serving only as a negligible counterweight.

There was also a secret plan suggested by Clemenceaus, to entirely abolish the state of Hungary, like today Kurds. Parting it between Czechosovakia and Yugoslavia (making a dual, federation like state) and Romania). However they dropped the idea, because of high instability, and possible rebellions.

But let us concentrate on the main question.

2. I don't think Mussolini would have conducted any action, beside talking, since the invasion itself had finished in a matter of weeks. The main Italian claims were on Yugoslavia, Albania and Greece.
 
It does sound fascinating. Am I wrong Romania & Germany had a deal at this time? For Germany to get Romanian oil? So this would piss of the Germans rather mightily, wouldn't it?:eek:

You do need to be a bit more patient...

And be aware, sometimes you just don't get anybody interested. (I've had all of one thread I started go over 5000 views...:eek:)

Germany didn't had a deal regarding the protection or any kind of that with Romania, just some trade deal on the import of oil. However they expected the Romanians to join the axis, so they can have a more direct control of it. But they couldn't do anything, if the Soviets decide to invade.

In reality the Soviet Union's primary reason to not install a communist government in Romania, was that Hungary in the end accepted the Second Vienna Award. Even Stalin declared, that every Hungarian terrotorial claim is justified (all of Transylvania, not just north of it). Less to improve bilateral relations, more to take hold of a weakened Romania, getting the oil fields, and cripple the Germans' ability to wage long term wars, if the Hungarian territorial claims would grant the Soviet Union another "ally", or at least a new neutral nation, then it's a good "bonus".

Another reason how realistic this would have been, if the one hour delay had happen.

"A szovjet politikai felfogás a Szovjetunió 1941 júniusi megtámadásáig azt vallotta, hogy a Romániával szembeni magyar területi követelések jogosak és megalapozottak. Jóllehet, az ezt deklaráló politikai nyilatkozataikban a szovjet vezetők nem abból a megfontolásból indultak ki, hogy majdan ez lehet a két állam vitájának reálisan és igazságosan, az etnikai elveknek megfelelő lezárása. A Magyarország melletti állásfoglalást elsősorban a Szovjetunió délkelet-európai hatalmi ambíciói diktálták: a szovjet külpolitika balkáni pozícióinak megőrzése és erősítése miatt a saját érdekszférájának tekintette Romániát, s egy olyan román állam meglétében volt érdekelt, amely fölé könnyebben kiterjesztheti befolyását. A magyar–román területi ellentétek kiélezése és fegyveres úton megkísérelt megoldása Moszkva számára alkalmasnak tűnt arra, hogy destabilizálja Hitler szövetségi rendszerét, s veszélyeztesse a német haderő számára létfontosságú romániai olajmezők zavartalan kitermelését. Egy fegyveres konfliktus okozta zűrzavar további ürügyet szolgáltathatott a szovjet csapatok beavatkozására, s további térnyerésére a Dunadelta térségében vagy Moldvában."
 
"A szovjet politikai felfogás a Szovjetunió 1941 júniusi megtámadásáig azt vallotta, hogy a Romániával szembeni magyar területi követelések jogosak és megalapozottak. Jóllehet, az ezt deklaráló politikai nyilatkozataikban a szovjet vezetők nem abból a megfontolásból indultak ki, hogy majdan ez lehet a két állam vitájának reálisan és igazságosan, az etnikai elveknek megfelelő lezárása. A Magyarország melletti állásfoglalást elsősorban a Szovjetunió délkelet-európai hatalmi ambíciói diktálták: a szovjet külpolitika balkáni pozícióinak megőrzése és erősítése miatt a saját érdekszférájának tekintette Romániát, s egy olyan román állam meglétében volt érdekelt, amely fölé könnyebben kiterjesztheti befolyását. A magyar–román területi ellentétek kiélezése és fegyveres úton megkísérelt megoldása Moszkva számára alkalmasnak tűnt arra, hogy destabilizálja Hitler szövetségi rendszerét, s veszélyeztesse a német haderő számára létfontosságú romániai olajmezők zavartalan kitermelését. Egy fegyveres konfliktus okozta zűrzavar további ürügyet szolgáltathatott a szovjet csapatok beavatkozására, s további térnyerésére a Dunadelta térségében vagy Moldvában."

Tessek, as en baratom, tessek!

Lusta nyelv diakok vagunk! I had a bit of fun (and a lot of flashbacks) trying to follow that quote. Petiki's Magyar is much better than mine, and if he's following the thread, he probably understood much more than I, but as far as I know, there are maybe three other Hungarian speakers on the forum.

It's fun to stick in a bit of foreign words, but we're an English board, so very few are going to follow your posts. And Hungarian, being so context heavy, is notoriously hard for internet translation. How about at least footnoting it in English? :)
 
Germany didn't had a deal regarding the protection or any kind of that with Romania, just some trade deal on the import of oil. However they expected the Romanians to join the axis, so they can have a more direct control of it. But they couldn't do anything, if the Soviets decide to invade.
I'll repeat my first post in this thread.

I suspect that Germany was aware of how dependent it was on Romanian oil, and would have over run Hungary in the same manner as they did Yugoslavia, had the Soviets tried to occupy Romania.

Or it wouldn't have been in the least out of character for Uncle Joe to provoke a "Lets you and him fight" grab Bessarabia the way he did Eastern Poland, and sit back and watch the fun - popcorn optional.
 
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