One hour changed history in 1940

Tessek, as en baratom, tessek!

Lusta nyelv diakok vagunk! I had a bit of fun (and a lot of flashbacks) trying to follow that quote. Petiki's Magyar is much better than mine, and if he's following the thread, he probably understood much more than I, but as far as I know, there are maybe three other Hungarian speakers on the forum.

It's fun to stick in a bit of foreign words, but we're an English board, so very few are going to follow your posts. And Hungarian, being so context heavy, is notoriously hard for internet translation. How about at least footnoting it in English? :)

It would sound like this:

Tessék, az én barátom, tessék!

That's him, that's my friend!

"Lusta nyelvű" diákok vagyunk!

(I think by that you meant Hyposyphilaid a speech disorder, called lazy tongue in English, but I don't know what is the correct name in Hungarian.)

We are students with lazy tongues.

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I have roughtly translated the main meaning of it above, see:

"In reality the Soviet Union's primary reason to not install a communist government in Romania, was that Hungary in the end accepted the Second Vienna Award. Even Stalin declared, that every Hungarian territorial claim is justified (all of Transylvania, not just north of it). Less to improve bilateral relations, more to take hold of a weakened Romania, getting the oil fields, and cripple the Germans' ability to wage long term wars, if the Hungarian territorial claims would grant the Soviet Union another "ally", or at least a new neutral nation, then it's a good "bonus"."

But here's the actual translation:

"The Soviet political viewpoint (till attacking the CCCP in 1941) was that, every territorial demand towards Romania is legal and valid. Albeit the Soviet leaders' main consideration wasn't that the two states could realistically and rightfully settle their debate according to ethnic principles. Their commitment to Hungary was part of their ambitions to get hold of the Balkans, to maintain and strengthen their positions, the Soviet Union regarded Romania as their sphere of interest, and sought to see a Romania which could be more easily influenced. The polarization of the Hungarian-Romanian territorial conflict, and its solution by the means of war, seemed suitable to destabilize Hitler's axis, and to endanger the Romanian oil extraction, crucial to the German army. Turmoil caused by an armed conflict, would have served another excuse for the Soviet military to intervene, and to gain more territory in Moldova and the Danube Delta."

"A szovjet politikai felfogás a Szovjetunió 1941 júniusi megtámadásáig azt vallotta, hogy a Romániával szembeni magyar területi követelések jogosak és megalapozottak. Jóllehet, az ezt deklaráló politikai nyilatkozataikban a szovjet vezetők nem abból a megfontolásból indultak ki, hogy majdan ez lehet a két állam vitájának reálisan és igazságosan, az etnikai elveknek megfelelő lezárása. A Magyarország melletti állásfoglalást elsősorban a Szovjetunió délkelet-európai hatalmi ambíciói diktálták: a szovjet külpolitika balkáni pozícióinak megőrzése és erősítése miatt a saját érdekszférájának tekintette Romániát, s egy olyan román állam meglétében volt érdekelt, amely fölé könnyebben kiterjesztheti befolyását. A magyar–román területi ellentétek kiélezése és fegyveres úton megkísérelt megoldása Moszkva számára alkalmasnak tűnt arra, hogy destabilizálja Hitler szövetségi rendszerét, s veszélyeztesse a német haderő számára létfontosságú romániai olajmezők zavartalan kitermelését. Egy fegyveres konfliktus okozta zűrzavar további ürügyet szolgáltathatott a szovjet csapatok beavatkozására, s további térnyerésére a Dunadelta térségében vagy Moldvában."
 
I'll repeat my first post in this thread.

I suspect that Germany was aware of how dependent it was on Romanian oil, and would have over run Hungary in the same manner as they did Yugoslavia, had the Soviets tried to occupy Romania.

Or it wouldn't have been in the least out of character for Uncle Joe to provoke a "Lets you and him fight" grab Bessarabia the way he did Eastern Poland, and sit back and watch the fun - popcorn optional.

Yes, but the invasion of Yugoslavia was not a big deal to them, because the condition were already hostile to the Axis, due to Mussolini's incompetence.

However they wouldn't risk attacking a potential ally, okay maybe they would, but regarding these conditions, it could lead to premature war with the Soviets in the Balkans.

Either way, it would have changed history (presumably big time, not the way like successful German sabotages in the US, which had zero potential).
 
Either way, it would have changed history (presumably big time, not the way like successful German sabotages in the US, which had zero potential).

Just someone write a TL already... that pod really had practically infinite possibilities :)
 
TL is Time Line
POD is Point Of Divergence from
OTL which is Our Time Line :)

I see, thanks. "Butterfly" I assume is in accordance with the butterfly effect right? There were also other abbreviations, like dds or bbs? Is there any thread that contain these?

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I request somebody with more thorough knowledge about history, and plausibility to make a TL. Like how would the other countries might react, from what list of action they can choose from, etc.

Thanks
 
not sure in what connection you encountered DDs and BBs, but usually those Abbreviations connect to navy ships...

BB = Battleship
DD = Destroyer

other important are

CV = Aircraft carrier (originally Cruiser aViation)
CA = Heavy Cruiser
CL = Light Cruiser
SS = Submarine

there many more for different ship types - including modifications for most of the above - some fell into disuse others are added to the list.

in am WWII context you probably will encounter:

BC = Battlecruiser
CB = Large Cruiser (probably only the US Alaska Class, and the Pocket Battleships of Germany)
CVL = Light Carrier
CVE = Escort Carrier
DE = Destroyer Escort
PT = Torpedo Boat
 
not sure in what connection you encountered DDs and BBs, but usually those Abbreviations connect to navy ships...

BB = Battleship
DD = Destroyer

other important are

CV = Aircraft carrier (originally Cruiser aViation)
CA = Heavy Cruiser
CL = Light Cruiser
SS = Submarine

there many more for different ship types - including modifications for most of the above - some fell into disuse others are added to the list.

in am WWII context you probably will encounter:

BC = Battlecruiser
CB = Large Cruiser (probably only the US Alaska Class, and the Pocket Battleships of Germany)
CVL = Light Carrier
CVE = Escort Carrier
DE = Destroyer Escort
PT = Torpedo Boat

tHank but actually the abbreviation I was looking for, meant something like "in real life", but it looked like that.

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Anyone help with a TL?
 
Hitler is furious with this attack on Romania and Germany's primary source of oil. The problem is he is not in a position to do anything about it, the bulk of his army is still in France. All he can do for the moment is try to apply diplomatic pressure to at least preserve a non-communist Romania.

I can see this working with Hungary, especially since the Romanians are willing to make territorial concessions. I don't see Stalin stopping short though once the shooting starts, unless the Romanians are somehow able to get a stalemate, something that appears highly unlikely.

The Germans will scream that the Soviets have violated the M-R Pact, the Soviets will come up with some convenient excuse. Stalin does not want a war with Hitler, but at this moment he knows he has the advantage and that the Germans really can't intervene while the fighting in the West is still going on.

If the Soviets succeed in either annexing Romania or installing a puppet government, I could easily see Stalin making a deal to sell Hitler oil, so long as he is willing to pay a fair price for it. Stalin will pretty much have Hitler by the balls, as he can cut off their oil supply any time he likes.

Hitler likely reacts the way he always does to any sort of major setback, he will probably order his General Staff to start planning the invasion of the Soviet Union, with teh recovery of the oil fields being the first major goal.
 
this would be regarded by Germany as a declaration of war on Germany...

The LW would be panic rotated out of France to go bomb the shit out of the Hungarians, and a couple of field armies would be assembled to go stomp them. This could all be assembled in less than a week, as the Germans had built huge depots in Austria for future operations in central europe or the balkans, and many german divisions hadn't fought at all in france or been limited to single battles... Hungary would regret this decision... a lot

Stalin would be smart enough to not antagonize Hitler like this when his army is still so weak
 
The German army had lots of infantry divisions in reserve not commited in France so that wouldn't be a problem; Luftwaffe fighter units could move off in a matter of days bombers would require a week or two to get mobile. There was also significant troops in the east look up http://niehorster.orbat.com/
 
Hitler is furious with this attack on Romania and Germany's primary source of oil. The problem is he is not in a position to do anything about it, the bulk of his army is still in France. All he can do for the moment is try to apply diplomatic pressure to at least preserve a non-communist Romania.
How mad would the Germans be? Yes it's somewhat of a threat, but with the German-Soviet Credit Agreement of 1939 and German-Soviet Commercial Agreement of 1940 where they were already supplying them with oil does it make a massive difference if they're also buying oil from a sovereign Romania/Hungary or a Soviet-backed country?
 
How mad would the Germans be? Yes it's somewhat of a threat,

Somewhat of a threat?

The Romanian oil fields were Germany's primary source of oil. You think Hitler is going to be okay with Stalin getting control of them and being able to completely shut off Germany's oil supply any time he wants?

Hitler NEVER trusted Stalin. His main ambition from the start was to destroy communism and conquer Lebensraum in the east. The M-L Pact and subsequent commercial agreements were a momentary convenience to allow him to conquer Poland and fight the West if necessary. Under no circumsances would Hitler ever calmly accept Soviet control of those oil fields.
 
It would take some time for the Soviets to actually reach said oilfields given their crappy post-purge performance and the fact that the defensively-minded Romanian Army has quite some advantages that will slow down the Soviets. Especially if by holding out, they hope to get whatever Hitler may promise them.
 
I don't think Germany would invade Hungary, since there was no de Facto alliance between Hungary or the Soviet Union, Transylvania is not that important to Germany than the oil fields. While the Russians divert the bulk of the Romanian army, Hungary can go freely into Traansylvania, and that's all for their "cooperation with the Soviets. Why bother invading Hungary when they are willing to let the troops through? The concern for Germany was not the territorial integrity of Romania (second vienna award), but secured oil.

At this point Hungary is still regarded neutral (despite heavily leaning towards axis).
 
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