On a Tall White Ship

Othniel · Mar 10, 2006

Thande said:
Excellent work Oth, glad my post inspired it, this period of English history (after 1066, before 1400s) tends to be a bit neglected for WIs...

Ironically this is acautly getting rid of England's biggest Continetal periods of history....just so I can have it happen later.

Othniel · Mar 10, 2006

AuroraBorealis said:
any chance of her marrying into the House of Toulouse or perhaps Burgundy or Aragon?

It would make quite an impressive collection of fiefs in the south of France then for any heirs of the match.

Yes, there is a chance.

That will be handled with her divorce in the next post.... as soon as I figure out whats happening in Anjou.....

htgriffin · Mar 11, 2006

Thande said:
No Anarchy? No nineteen winters when Christ and His angels slept? No Plantagenets?

Oh I imagine there would be Plantagenets.

Although reasonably powerful counts of Anjou is a far cry from OTL's empire.

The big thing here is that the Normans were already begoming more English... and without the huge chunks from France and claim to the french throne they may have assimilated sooner.

More to the point, France may well have never pulled itself together without the Plantagenet Empire for the Capets to pound into submission (and take thier lands).

HTG

htgriffin · Mar 11, 2006

AuroraBorealis said:
any chance of her marrying into the House of Toulouse or perhaps Burgundy or Aragon?

It would make quite an impressive collection of fiefs in the south of France then for any heirs of the match.

Actually, it could well turn Aquitaine-Barcelona-Aragon into a powerful west-mediterranian domain in it's own right.

HTG

htgriffin · Mar 11, 2006

Othniel said:
Ironically this is acautly getting rid of England's biggest Continetal periods of history....just so I can have it happen later.

BOO!! I wanted England and the Channel facing more towards the North Sea... and the North Atlantic.

A France of numerous petty statelets would simply be icing on the cake.

HTG

Douglas · Mar 11, 2006

Interesting idea...can't wait to see more.

Othniel · Mar 11, 2006

htgriffin said:
Oh I imagine there would be Plantagenets.

And Geoffory the Handsom, second husband of Matilda, doesn't get married to her so never conquers Normandy. Has Maine and Anjou though...

Although reasonably powerful counts of Anjou is a far cry from OTL's empire.

Thus is fuedalism...

The big thing here is that the Normans were already begoming more English... and without the huge chunks from France and claim to the french throne they may have assimilated sooner.

I wouldn't be to sure of that...or at least Roger II won't... (Kingdom of Sicily..)

More to the point, France may well have never pulled itself together without the Plantagenet Empire for the Capets to pound into submission (and take thier lands).

HTG

Don't jump to conclusions. The situation is always changing. After all this is a Cause and Effect timeline, rather than a butterfly.

Note, Eliminated an error, I kept reading an entry wrong..

Stephen wasn't a Plantagerant, but might has well been for all the trouble he went to set them up.

Othniel · Mar 12, 2006

Big problem with either Aragon or Toulouse... neither of them have an heir of eligble age.. or someone of marriagable age that isn't married already... looking elsewhere,,,but it won't have much effect as if it isn't someone in France...

I'm going to give the readers a few options.

1) Continue the timeline being vaque on Eleanor and possible until I find a suitable marriage for Eleanor.
2)Have Eleanor not remarry, having her daughters split the inhiertance.
3) Finsh up the reaseach, and then continue the timeline...

Your choice...

G.Bone · Mar 13, 2006

I will vote for the third one but just don't take so loooooooong as Richard with the Hittie TL..................

Shadow Knight · Mar 13, 2006

I say go with the third option.

Thande · Mar 13, 2006

Third option definitely, and don't be afraid to take your time. Slow and steady wins the timeline excellence award IMHO.

bill_bruno · Mar 13, 2006

English constitutional developments

Does the lack of The Anarchy mean that Henry's centralization (non-nobles in the royal "bureaucracy", a vigorous exchequer, royal officials judging local disputes) continues?

Othniel · Mar 13, 2006

Leon and Castille split in 1157... what would you guys think it I married Eleanor to one of the sons of Raimúndez, Alfonso VII the Emperor, Count of Castile? Both of them are in situations of marriage or could have their marriage delayed and both have time to have a child produced.. though its doubtful such a situation would have Louis VII give suzerain.

Othniel · Mar 13, 2006

bill_bruno said:
Does the lack of The Anarchy mean that Henry's centralization (non-nobles in the royal "bureaucracy", a vigorous exchequer, royal officials judging local disputes) continues?

That depends on William.

G.Bone · Mar 13, 2006

Leon and Castille split in 1157... what would you guys think it I married Eleanor to one of the sons of Raimúndez, Alfonso VII the Emperor, Count of Castile? Both of them are in situations of marriage or could have their marriage delayed and both have time to have a child produced.. though its doubtful such a situation would have Louis VII give suzerain.
__________________

I would say go with it - one of those common Spain + France makes the night go sunny things

Othniel · Mar 13, 2006

G.Bone said:
I would say go with it - one of those common Spain + France makes the night go sunny things

As soon as I get my confirmation on how this would probably work I'll have it up.

Othniel · Mar 14, 2006

Reign of Louis VII
(Part II)
The marriage of Louis VII and Eleanor of Aquitaine ended in March of 1152 at the council of Beaugency. Eleanor and Louis would work out an arrangement with Alfonso VII; marrying Eleanor to Fernando, Alfonso's younger son, and marrying Louis VII to Constance, his daughter. His father had guaranteed the Kingdom of Leon would go to Fernando, as Castile had been pledged to his older brother. Aquitaine was to be a vassal of the crown of France, with an agreement between them that the heir of Leon would not be the same heir that Aquitaine was to be a vassal of the crown of France, with an agreement between them that the heir of Leon would not be the same heir that inheirts Aquitaine or Poitiers. Thus Louis made it so his daughters would inheirt them if she could not produce more than one male heir. Eleanor was to be the head of Aquatine and Poitiers, as Ferinand would become the head of Leon.

Constance would have two daughters, Marguerite of France (1158–97), and Alys (October 4, 1160 – c. 1220), before her death in childbirth on October 4th, 1160. Louis was remarried to Adèle of Champagne but five weeks after Constance's death.

Emperor Fredrick Barbarossa would challenge matters in the kingdom of Arles, triggering French support for Pope Alexander III (1159–81), an enemy of Barbarossa. Given in loyalty to Alexander, France would win out over the German anti-popes.

In 1165, Adèle gave Louis the son and heir he so desired; Phillip II (August 22, 1165 – 1223), called Phillip Augustus in OTL. Phillip's sister, Agnes (1171–1240), would be born six years later.

The growing dissent of his vassals was countered by his rewards from the church. Although few, his allies proved their loyalty, with his diplomatic skills exceeding his military ones.

Phillip II succeeded Louis at Rhiems in 1179. However, stricken with paralysis in his old age, Louis VII would be unable to attend. He died about a year after.

Comments, Critisms, Croissant?

Nicole · Mar 14, 2006

I'll take the croissant!

Don't know much about this period to comment, but I'm enjoying the TL.

Othniel · Mar 14, 2006

Imajin said:
I'll take the croissant!

Don't know much about this period to comment, but I'm enjoying the TL.

Hmm, but can you see what I'm seeding?

AuroraBorealis · Mar 14, 2006

Divided France/Grter HRE perhaps.

Othniel said:
Hmm, but can you see what I'm seeding?

Idle speculation....

A division of France similiar to that of the HRE. Perhaps eventually one all encompassing one with England and Some of the Spanish states having fiefs in the Empire akin to those of Denmark vis a vis Slesvig-Holstein. Way down the road of course.

Is a Capet dynasty a possibility...but that might be wishful thinking. Phillip II is not so challenged as he was OTL in France so he can take up the cause of the Pope and the Italians in defying the Hohenstaufens ( At least I think its them, I am going too have to check again...).

Hmm... The Crusades, should they occur , are going to prove very interesting indeed...