The southern Muslim communities in Bilgaria are Pomaks. "Turks" are far away from Greece( North East Bulgaria)
Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
If we are talking about the area south of the Arda river I believe about two thirds of the Muslim population there is Turkish based on Bulgarian census data which give for the districts in the area Muslim populations in the region of 75-98.7% of the total with Turks varying per district up to 86%?
I've tried to make an estimate of the breakdown of the population projecting backwards to the data of the Bulgarian 1946 census the later census data we have of the Muslim and Turkish population. (Yes I know not going to be entirely accurate but can't be helped) It can be seen in the table below. Note this is supposed to be only the area south of the Arda so only a small slice of Smolyan and part of Madan are included
| District | Area km2 | Population 1946 | Turkish | Pomak | Bulgarian |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Smolyan | 154 | 2233 | 6 | 932 | 1295 |
| Rudozem | 183 | 5404 | 951 | 4118 | 335 |
| Madan | 111 | 5478 | 597 | 4591 | 290 |
| Zlatograd | 172 | 8164 | 73 | 6066 | 2025 |
| Nedelino | 102 | 3137 | 6 | 2513 | 618 |
| Ardino | 339 | 30609 | 22.559 | 7622 | 429 |
| Dzhebel | 229 | 16122 | 13.075 | 2612 | 435 |
| Kirkovo | 538 | 25975 | 15.040 | 10598 | 338 |
| Krumovgrad | 843 | 33550 | 22.948 | 6911 | 3691 |
| Momchilgrad | 358 | 23.064 | 19.881 | 2007 | 1176 |
| Ivailovgrad | 814 | 18538 | 2.707 | 2447 | 13384 |
Part 155
Falaise, August 17th, 1944
The town fell to the 1st Canadian Army. Model had ordered a German retreat but tens of thousands of soldiers had to be left behind or were already encircled. By August 21st Allied forces would capture about 50,000 German soldiers while the German defenses in Normandy had fully collapsed.
Bucharest, August 18th, 1944
Romanian infantry recaptured the building of the Ministry of the Interior from the Iron Guard. Codreanu might have had German support but the Romanian army was outnumbering his own Legionnaires and German soldiers in Bucharest and its environs combined. Thus success to his coup had depended to the army switching sides to him and despite the initial confusion after the capture of Antonescu the army had not done so. When the second attack on the Ministry of War and the royal palace had failed and Iuliu Maniu had shown up directing things from the Ministry of War, the writing on the wall had been clear. All Codreanu had accomplished was a three day bloodbath in the streets of Bucharest and ironically enough bringing down Antonescu, the body of the marshal would be found in the basement of the Ministry of the Interior. Codreanu himself had fled for German held territory ahead of the Romanian army, he would proclaim a Romanian government in exile from Vienna a week later. But back in Bucharest it was Maniu who would proclaim the creation of a provisional government of Romania under him from the just liberated building of the Ministry of the Interior.
Finland, August 18th, 1944
Kouvola fell to the Soviets. Soviet losses from the start of the offensive were nearly 160,000 men but the Finnish army seemed unable so far to stop the Soviet advance. Which was showing on the diplomatic front as well, where Finnish overtures through Stockholm for an armistice had been met by a demand for unconditional surrender. This was also putting Sweden in a bind. The Swedish government had quietly sounded Britain what would be its reaction to a Swedish occupation of the Aland islands. The answer was that Britain understood the strategic importance of the islands but if Sweden did this it should clearly demonstrate her commitment to the United Nations by concrete and unmistakable actions. Which had been understood in Stockholm as "make sure the Soviets don't have any means cannot accuse you of colluding with the Finns and Germans". Not something very easy when Sweden for all her neutrality and sympathy to the west had been also steadily supplying the Germans with high quality iron ore and finished goods like ball bearings for the past several years and had let German troops to cross from Norway to Finland and back through Swedish territory...
Paris, August 19th, 1944
Retreating German columns could be seen marching through the Champs Elysees. But the city had also awaken to thousands of posters calling on the great city to rise up and every able bodied Frenchman to rise up and join the Forces of the Interior. Soon skirmishes would begin. By the next day barricades would start rising up. Eighty years ago baron Haussmann had supposedly made Parisian streets wide for sun and grapeshot so that Parisians could not go to the barricades. Parisians were putting the motion they could not, once more to question....
Bucharest, August 19th, 1944
In his first act of his new government Iuliu Maniu, declared war on Germany for attacking Romania, Codreanu a traitor and Romania was stopping fighting the Allies and asking for an armistice and joining the United Nations. Out in the east the German and Romanian resistance to the Soviet assault was already collapsing. Now Romanian units just stopped fighting the Soviets leaving the German 6th army on its own devices.
Constantinople, August 19th, 1944
Armies parading through the queen of cities had not been a new sight ever since Byzantium had become New Rome. But it was the first time in history Constantinopolitans were treated to the sight of armored columns moving through their streets as the tanks of the Greek III Armoured Division, entered the city.
Vichy, August 20th, 1944
Philippe Petain, maybe was regretting now his refusal to follow admiral Auphan to Algiers back in January 1944. He had been left instead as a figurehead above the collaborationist government of Pierre Laval while the Germans occupied the entirety of mainland France. But it was too late for regrets any more. His refusal to meet Vichy had been men by the Germans forcibly moving him to Belfort.
Dumbarton Oaks, New York, August 21st, 1944
The conference for the creation of the organization that would replace the old League of Nations postwar begun...
Sofia, August 21st, 1944
The sound of the guns, could be still heard from the city but now was to its north and growing more distant. With Bulgaria open to their armies the Western Allies were taking a page from the Bulgarians own rule-book with the divisions of the Greek 1st army advancing through Bulgaria and invading Serbia from the east with Greek armor advancing towards Pirot and Nis and further attacks launched from Vidin. Which also meant Bulgarians were treated to the sight of column after column of Allied trucks moving through their capital, the Allied divisions had to be kept in supply after all but by the same token the Allies were making a show of force. At least all these columns of troops and supplies going north by truck and the commandeered Bulgarian rail network were just going through. And the front was getting more distant by the day, the German army was apparently in all out retreat from Serbia and Albania now that Bulgaria had left the war...
The town fell to the 1st Canadian Army. Model had ordered a German retreat but tens of thousands of soldiers had to be left behind or were already encircled. By August 21st Allied forces would capture about 50,000 German soldiers while the German defenses in Normandy had fully collapsed.
Bucharest, August 18th, 1944
Romanian infantry recaptured the building of the Ministry of the Interior from the Iron Guard. Codreanu might have had German support but the Romanian army was outnumbering his own Legionnaires and German soldiers in Bucharest and its environs combined. Thus success to his coup had depended to the army switching sides to him and despite the initial confusion after the capture of Antonescu the army had not done so. When the second attack on the Ministry of War and the royal palace had failed and Iuliu Maniu had shown up directing things from the Ministry of War, the writing on the wall had been clear. All Codreanu had accomplished was a three day bloodbath in the streets of Bucharest and ironically enough bringing down Antonescu, the body of the marshal would be found in the basement of the Ministry of the Interior. Codreanu himself had fled for German held territory ahead of the Romanian army, he would proclaim a Romanian government in exile from Vienna a week later. But back in Bucharest it was Maniu who would proclaim the creation of a provisional government of Romania under him from the just liberated building of the Ministry of the Interior.
Finland, August 18th, 1944
Kouvola fell to the Soviets. Soviet losses from the start of the offensive were nearly 160,000 men but the Finnish army seemed unable so far to stop the Soviet advance. Which was showing on the diplomatic front as well, where Finnish overtures through Stockholm for an armistice had been met by a demand for unconditional surrender. This was also putting Sweden in a bind. The Swedish government had quietly sounded Britain what would be its reaction to a Swedish occupation of the Aland islands. The answer was that Britain understood the strategic importance of the islands but if Sweden did this it should clearly demonstrate her commitment to the United Nations by concrete and unmistakable actions. Which had been understood in Stockholm as "make sure the Soviets don't have any means cannot accuse you of colluding with the Finns and Germans". Not something very easy when Sweden for all her neutrality and sympathy to the west had been also steadily supplying the Germans with high quality iron ore and finished goods like ball bearings for the past several years and had let German troops to cross from Norway to Finland and back through Swedish territory...
Paris, August 19th, 1944
Retreating German columns could be seen marching through the Champs Elysees. But the city had also awaken to thousands of posters calling on the great city to rise up and every able bodied Frenchman to rise up and join the Forces of the Interior. Soon skirmishes would begin. By the next day barricades would start rising up. Eighty years ago baron Haussmann had supposedly made Parisian streets wide for sun and grapeshot so that Parisians could not go to the barricades. Parisians were putting the motion they could not, once more to question....
Bucharest, August 19th, 1944
In his first act of his new government Iuliu Maniu, declared war on Germany for attacking Romania, Codreanu a traitor and Romania was stopping fighting the Allies and asking for an armistice and joining the United Nations. Out in the east the German and Romanian resistance to the Soviet assault was already collapsing. Now Romanian units just stopped fighting the Soviets leaving the German 6th army on its own devices.
Constantinople, August 19th, 1944
Armies parading through the queen of cities had not been a new sight ever since Byzantium had become New Rome. But it was the first time in history Constantinopolitans were treated to the sight of armored columns moving through their streets as the tanks of the Greek III Armoured Division, entered the city.
Vichy, August 20th, 1944
Philippe Petain, maybe was regretting now his refusal to follow admiral Auphan to Algiers back in January 1944. He had been left instead as a figurehead above the collaborationist government of Pierre Laval while the Germans occupied the entirety of mainland France. But it was too late for regrets any more. His refusal to meet Vichy had been men by the Germans forcibly moving him to Belfort.
Dumbarton Oaks, New York, August 21st, 1944
The conference for the creation of the organization that would replace the old League of Nations postwar begun...
Sofia, August 21st, 1944
The sound of the guns, could be still heard from the city but now was to its north and growing more distant. With Bulgaria open to their armies the Western Allies were taking a page from the Bulgarians own rule-book with the divisions of the Greek 1st army advancing through Bulgaria and invading Serbia from the east with Greek armor advancing towards Pirot and Nis and further attacks launched from Vidin. Which also meant Bulgarians were treated to the sight of column after column of Allied trucks moving through their capital, the Allied divisions had to be kept in supply after all but by the same token the Allies were making a show of force. At least all these columns of troops and supplies going north by truck and the commandeered Bulgarian rail network were just going through. And the front was getting more distant by the day, the German army was apparently in all out retreat from Serbia and Albania now that Bulgaria had left the war...
Stop right there. Having a Moslem minority, even a numerous one, doesn't get a non-Moslem country any status in the ummah. Ask India.
Perhaps then we are about to see an Allied Sweden. I wonder whether a swedish declaration of war and a swedish occupation of the Alands will lead to a NATO Sweden.
If the 6th Army is destroyed then perhaps even holding the Carpathians will be a challenging task for the Germans.
Well, this is an anti-climactic sight, at least as it seems for now.
ITTL it's all the more obvious Germany is screwed, the continued existence of the German war effort is best now measured in months if not weeks. The question is only about how the post war world is laid out and who gets to have a seat at the table. I think it's pretty reasonable that Swedish leadership at the moment makes a different calculus and accepts the likely minor German bombing raids as an acceptable compromise to securing Alands from being used as a forward base against them. OTL they already trained Norwegian and Danish regiments even if Wikipedia tells me they didn't see much action; maybe ITTL a joint Scandinavian army consisting of soldiers from all three liberates Copenhagen and Oslo?
You are writing a very good timeline here, but it sort of puts me off that you seem to be letting your personal negative attitudes against countries show in the writing. Earlier I have noticed this in terms of Finland's WWII actions, and now you appear to be moralizing about Sweden's neutrality policies.
The bolded is also objectively iffy, as Sweden was not "steadily" supplying Germany with those goods, but clearly started holding back on deliveries to Germany as Berlin's prospects in the war were declining, culminating in Sweden suspending exports to Germany entirely in October 1944 IOTL. Sweden's policies in the war were pretty much purely cynical and self-serving, it was engaged in very practical sort of neutrality that saw its actions shift along with the events of the war. We can't really fault Sweden for how it conducted its affairs during the war, given how it was practically surrounded by Germany, with German troops in Denmark, Norway and Finland, the last of them also being aligned with Hitler, not just occupied. Nazi Germany had strong leverage over Sweden, especially in 1940-1942, for example being able to control most of Sweden's normal trade routes. Due to the realities of the situation, Germany actually was one of the major sources of food, etc, for Sweden, a country that also had to resort to heavy rationing to feed its people through the war. The government in Stockholm was responsible for the lives and well-being of Swedish citizens first, it had no responsibility for helping the Allies win the war. And even so, Sweden also traded with the Allies through the war, and helped their war effort in many ways, like providing them with intelligence on the Germans.
The Allied leadership understood the Swedish and Finnish positions during the war. This can be for example seen in the fact that the US never declared war on Finland during WWII, even if Finland obviously was allied with Hitler and invaded the USSR during Barbarossa. The major Western Allies would not in the event consider Sweden's neutrality policies as a "betrayal" of Allied war effort, holding Stockholm's wartime policies against them. Sweden was a sovereign, unaligned country with its own priorities, after all, and with no commitments to Britain or the US. In late 1944, Washington and London would be looking at how to best organize the European reality after the war. It would not make sense for them to punish Sweden due to perceived "pro-German" policies during the war, they would rather be looking at how to best limit the growth of Soviet influence in the Baltic Sea area. Sweden would be an important tool in this work, especially if Finland is well and truly falling to Stalin.
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What is actually happening in Constantinople not particularly clear in the last few chapters. Is it entirely controlled by the Greek army ? Are there Soviet units in the City ? What is going on with the Bulgarian forces that were there ?
I believe the proper question here is not if objectively Sweden or for that matter Finland were between a rock and a hard place. You are absolutely correct they were. The question is rather what L'Humanite for example will be writing? Since 1941 the Western public has been receiving a steady diet of pro-Soviet propaganda and communist/leftist parties are at the peak of their popularity. How difficult it would be for Soviet propaganda to frame Sweden or for that matter Finland as Nazi collaborators in 1944 when you can find people buying into this in 2024?
"Hey these evil Germanic people, have been giving the Nazis the means to kill good Lincolnshire boys and bomb British cities, while they were letting the Krauts through their country to invade us and volunteered by the thousands to the SS, the Wiking division is full of Swedes rilly! You should be actively helping us attack them over Aland not complain!"
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I used the term in a similar manner then it was used earlier in the thread:
Personally I found it quite plausible. You don't need standing in the Ummah to have influence over some Muslim populations. OTL proves that much in many instances
By my reading this seem to be intentional as no one in-universe really has the full picture either. IMO we are meant to be unsure and in the same fog of war as everyone is in-universe, with us to only see clearly when they will.
Appart from that, I am probably getting too optimistic here but I am starting to think the WAllies might get enough boots on the ground in Romania for Bucharest to have at least some cards to play against the Soviets and everything else seem to be following broadly OTL lines... Although both here and OTL the moment when the Parisians decide to go ''Alright folks, time to channel back the old days! To the barricades!'' is always a nice moment (for lack of a better term) in the war.
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Giving, both Sweden own strategic situation and the appearing closer each day possibility, that of either that the Finnish Army would finally be overrun and/or that Helsinki wouldn't be left with any more options than accept the Soviet terms and surrendering... And, besides that Sweden options, in this scenario, are rather limite; I'd tend to think that wouldn't make sense to do a move that would be perceived as self serving by both the Western Allies and most important, considering the foreseeable, rather hostile Soviet and Soviet aligned/sympathetic public opinion. So, IMO, again, if Sweden both for securing their place in the peace conference and most important for both keep the Soviet Army as far as possible from their borders. They would have to show clearly their 'commitment to the Allied cause' (and for will enjoy the benefices of to be firmly politically and military aligned with the Western Allies) would have to declare the war to German and invade Finland and to liberate Norway...
Ofc that in the former, they would, if able, likely to target the North and/or Central Norway with the help of the Norwegian resistance. And in the latter, perhaps, Sweden, would be counting the benefice of if not the Finnish agreement, at least a fait accompli like token resistance from the Finnish Army and Government.
A Government that, would likely be forced to choose between the bad one (surrendering and 'd be under foreign occupation) and from, their perspective, the infinitely worse one, that their nation's would be puppetized with territorial losses or even re-annexed to the Russian now Soviet Empire.
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Given that, it was dealt with only a few words, I would expect/hope that later, from perhaps some of the protagonists POVs it would be revisited and we could hopefully be getting some more details about that, even if only for its sentimental/symbolic importance) TTL worldwide headlining, keystone event...
So things in France seem to be more or less OTL with a new coat of paint. Romania seems to be trying to win the 1944 award for most different governments in one year, despite there being stiff competition. Germany is in full retreat on all fronts except the Soviets.
That said this worrying by the Swedes seems a bit excessive in my opinion. They’ve significantly decreased goods shipped to Germany OTL by this point and would likely have done even more sooner ITTL with things looking worse for the axis significantly earlier. The Brits approve and I see no real reason the US wouldn’t approve of another ally assisting in ending another “side show” to the main war. It would be the reverse of the response to the Russians grabbing key locations in a Turkey with Turkish assistance. So the Swedes sweep in and help end the war faster. Why are the Soviets upset, we’re all allies helping each other after all. The US might not have as much leverage but at the end of the day I don’t think the Soviets are going to damage relations over the Aland islands and maybe some of Northern Finland being occupied by the Swedes. If it’s deathly important to them they can still horse trade at the peace negotiations.
As for the propaganda angle, it’s very easy for propaganda and peoples opinions to change.
That said this worrying by the Swedes seems a bit excessive in my opinion. They’ve significantly decreased goods shipped to Germany OTL by this point and would likely have done even more sooner ITTL with things looking worse for the axis significantly earlier. The Brits approve and I see no real reason the US wouldn’t approve of another ally assisting in ending another “side show” to the main war. It would be the reverse of the response to the Russians grabbing key locations in a Turkey with Turkish assistance. So the Swedes sweep in and help end the war faster. Why are the Soviets upset, we’re all allies helping each other after all. The US might not have as much leverage but at the end of the day I don’t think the Soviets are going to damage relations over the Aland islands and maybe some of Northern Finland being occupied by the Swedes. If it’s deathly important to them they can still horse trade at the peace negotiations.
As for the propaganda angle, it’s very easy for propaganda and peoples opinions to change.
The term "Moslem" is now generally seen as an archaic spelling of the now standard spelling "Muslim" *. The meaning are the same, but many Muslims find the alternate spelling to be somewhat insulting (perhaps because it is the preferred spelling used in Islamaphobia Internet tracts).
Please try to remember that preferred spelling going forward.
*There is actually a rather interesting, and quite informative, group of posts on the subject in Chat.
Yes! Romania still defected to the Allies,despite Codreanu's intervention. All Hail Iuliu Maniu. I wonder though if Romania,thanks to Bulgaria earlier surrounder will manage to avoid comunism. I wonder what Nicolae's place in this was. Does he have any children? Keep up the good work.
Well, I'd think that that the best option that Romania, could hope for both in this situation and due to her bordering the S. Union, would be to be 'Finlandized'. Even if it, at this instance would appear as less likely than any of the others possible post war scenarios in Romania.
I think things for Constantinople would very much be very chaotic, and I think there is a large possibility that at the end the city would be an international city, but with American control its basically greek in all but name.
I think we'd see Bulgaria be the neutral power and Romania be under the sway of the communists, with how the story is going.
Sweden supposedly was about to attack the Germans in Denmark in May 1945 when the Germans went and unconditionally surrendered. Here they are under quite a bit of more pressure with Triandafillov advancing in Helsinki.
I'm shocked, shocked to hear the situation in Constantinople is hazy.
The Soviets are controlling the Asian side. Some Soviet units have crossed over to the European side. The Greek army has reached the city, and the Greek resistance units communist and not communist alike have joined the regular army. The Armenians are in Limbo, they are taking orders from the Greeks and British but have no state behind them. The Bulgarians are still around, we are only four days from the Bulgarian armistice at the moment.Traditions of revolution have to be kept, don't they?
The Swedes apparently had two war plans, Radda Norge and Radda Denmark to take on the Germans in Norway and Denmark respectively. Now the Swedish army is well armed and well trained... for a peacetime army.
Annexation to the Soviet Union is not in the cards. Not that the Finnish government would care much about the prospect about the country becoming "Democratic Republic of Finland"
In the Eastern front Bagration and the Lvov-Sandomierz offensive are in their final stages. The Soviets have inflicted on the Axis something in the order of 600,000 casualties, the grand majority German, and advanced from Mogilev to the gates of Warsaw, over 700 km. And are now knocking Romania out of the war. So the Germans not being in full retreat in the east is... not exactly accurate. If anything while in the western and Balkan fronts the Allies are just now going into exploitation phase the Soviet offensives, aside from Jassy, are already completing exploitation at the moment.
The British also have no reason, not to put the screws on the Swedes to hopefully get them to do more than just a limited intervention in Finland. And I short of doubt perfidious Albion would have much compunction anout doing as much when it costs them little to nothing.
Northern Finland also has the German 20th Mountain Army...
Maniu would very much like to see Western forces in Bucharest. Now the Greek 1st Army is not very well positioned to do that and Slim's 10th army is even further west thus there are practical difficulties... even if Churchill want to send forces that way... which would make application of the percentages agreement he made in Tehran... interesting.
OTL Maniu apparently hoped the Romanian army would pull back in a redoubt around Bucharest and the Soviets would keep out of it. Actual feasibility of this is... questionable?
You're probably right, but in all honesty I've never understood why the Soviets directly annexing the Baltic States was "thinkable", and annexing Finland-which became independent under similar circumstances and at roughly the same time-wasn't.
Was annexation on the table during the Winter War, but not in ‘44?
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