Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Alt History Buff, Jan 8, 2018.
Larger navy then America or China? The question is unclear.
I think the Americans should sell Hokkaido and Sakhalin to Nippon (keeping permanent basing rights). The islands don't have enough arable land or resources to justify the cost of ruling them so far away. However, the sale would effectively bind Japan to the u.p. as a permanent puppet.
Japan also really needs it (or some outlet) due to the devistation from the war. Southern Japan has had the world's highest rural population density since the 1600s, the war will have wreaked havoc among such a precariously balanced system. In the short term they aren't likely to have a famine because they can buy American grain, but the population will (and probably already has) start rising quickly with improvements in medicine. Farming in tohoku (north Honshu) can be expanded somewhat, but Hokkaido is the only place nearby that has a lot of arable land (by Japanese standards, avarage farm size is only a couple acres).
I think it could work out nicely for both sides, America keeps Kamchatka and has permanent bases in Hokkaido and Sakhalin, and Nippon has a place to send it's excess population.
Now that Japan is in the American sphere, will the Americans help modernize it (Japan would still be ahead of most other Asian states at this point) to turn it into their product market?
I'm thinking of what would be the world's biggest cities ittl, but the answers to these questions would greatly influence my list:
1: what is the capital of the marathas?
2: Manhattan+Bronx subway is well underway, how's the situation in Brooklyn, and west of the Hudson (Georgetown and whatever Staten island is called?
3: Britian is somewhat less industrialized, but how does the ttl railway network compare?
4: how devastated were Japan's cities
5: what is the capital of the Chinese empire?
6: ttl *Chicago and *Gary seem to be like otl Minneapolis-saint Paul. Are they the center of the nation's rail network?
7: state of development of Aztlan, Andea, Brazilian states?
8: how influential are the Netherlands?
9: how urbanized is Java?
Very, though the civil war there would have damaged the island somewhat. In this TL, the unique brand of local Islam would have gained ascendancy over the standard Sunni brand.
Thanks for reading.
America, France, Britain, Russia, China and the Maratha Empire have the largest navies. Spain, the Andean Republic, etc have smaller navies. Beyond that, there are no major naval powers.
Map of World - 1901
That’s almost the exact same list I thought would be true except I thought Scandinavia would have at least a midsize navy.
Caught up again, 170 years, that's lots of changes.
Could you, when you wind up the TL, sum up the largest differences between TTL and OTL, please?
I'm interested in economy/industrialisation, infrastructure, science, education, population density, human rights, politics, ideologies, media, traditional friends and arch foes, ...
An larger European map would be nice as well.
BTW: How does the German and American Hohenzollern see each other?
It would be fun, if a member of a poor cadet branch (Sigmaringen?) married a rich American Hohenzollern to come full circle
Though the Kingdom of Germany would threaten retaliation over the winter if 1901/02 if the Empire of Germany’s forces did not withdraw from the restive Kingdom of Saxony, the Habsburgs did not believe that the Protestant Hohenzollerns had any inclination to actually cross the border. After literally years of standoff, the Kingdom’s forces would enter Saxon territory under the pretense of reestablishing peace at the behest of the “German People”.
The King of Saxony, whose forces were already spread thin in a vain attempt to suppress unrest, would promptly demand that the Habsburgs dispatch more Regiments to Saxony. Those having already been dispatched over the past two years were mainly light units intended to suppress rebellion, not full-fledged armies ready to face the forces of the Kingdom of Germany.
The Emperor, whom had never believed that this would come to pass, hesitated for two vital days before consenting to call up his forces. Only an augmented Brigade was ready at the Saxon border when to aid their fellows against the invaders. It would take weeks for the bulk of the Habsburg Army to gather and organize. That gave the Hohenzollern army a massive head-start in seizing most of the Kingdom of Saxony.
Similar to the deteriorating Saxon situation, the Kingdom of Tuscany would also convulse. There was perhaps less rebellion against the incompetent Tuscan Bourbon Dynasty as much as general unrest against an oppressive regime.
King Emilio II of Tuscany was aging badly, already effectively senile by age sixty-five. His only son (and only child) died the previous year. His only male heir was his eldest grandchild, Prince Giuseppe, now twenty. Giuseppe’s mother was the Spanish Princess Carolina and probably the most powerful person in court. The Dowager Princess would viciously battle the courts for the prerogatives of her son and three younger daughters. Rumor had it that the eldest princess, the lovely dark-eyed eighteen year old Maria, would soon receive applications for her hand in marriage by the heirs of both the Gallic Kingdoms and Spain (and Portugal and Italy, often referred to as the “Latin” Kingdoms).
The situation in Tuscany would quietly grow ever more dismal until, in a terrible turn of events, Prince Giuseppe would die of pneumonia after a long ride in the rain. Technically, Tuscany followed Salic Law but there was no reasonably close male heir in the family. The closest was a second cousin, twice removed whom was sixty years old and childless. The next was a third cousin whom had taken monastic vows (and was reportedly less than intelligent).
Beyond that, those Princes with the closest claim to the Tuscan throne were…the heir to the Gallic Empire (by his mother’s line) and the current Prince of the Latin Empire. As Tuscany had allies with Spain over the past decade, the government would swiftly recognize Prince Javier of Spain as the new heir and the King of Tuscany, having seen two male generations of his line die, agree to marry Princess Maria to Javier.
The Gallic King protested and, for once, the Gallic peoples would support his dynastic claim. Spain (and Portugal and Italy) had been agitating for total control over Italy for generations and now looked ready to gain it. Even the Piedmont region of the Gallic Kingdoms may not be beyond their avarice. If no one cared about adding a new Kingdom to the Gallic Crowns, they certainly cared about preventing one from being added to the Latin Crown.
In truth, the Gallic King was less interested in Tuscany as he was in securing the hand of Princess Maria for his son. The pair had known one another since childhood (there were only so many Catholic monarchies these days) and seemed to be a good match. Learning that the girl had been hurriedly married off to his rival was more of a personal insult than a challenge to his nations.
By mid-summer, Bourbon-Italian troops would march into Tuscany to secure the little Kingdom for the Infante and ensure that the Tuscan democratic elements were crushed. The Gallic peoples, whom loathed the Spanish-Italian Bourbons for their commitment to authoritarianism, would see this as a potential precursor to an invasion of their own nations. They even became concerned that the Piedmontese may desire annexation into Italy. However, this fear existed only in their imaginations. The Piedmontese did, indeed, feel a kinship to their fellow Italians but had no desire to give up their hard-won democracy under the Gallic Crown (with generous dollops of local autonomy) in order to submit to Spanish-Bourbon Autocratic government. There was no real movement in the Piedmont outside of the imaginations of the French, Alsatians, Bretons, Occitans, etc.
But paranoia reigned and the Gauls began to form Regiments at the border.
President Bland was happy enough with the “Peace Treaty” if one could call it that. The Chinese barely acknowledged that there had been a war. But who understood the Chinese mind?
As it was, America “gained” a few islands off of north-eastern Asia and a bit of the Asian continent…which was so miserably cold that no one beyond the local equivalent of Inuits dwelled.
In the meantime, America had spent hundreds of millions of dollars to prevent China’s takeover of Nippon, a nation with which America had no historical ties or alliances. Yes, the President knew that China would probably utterly dominate Southeast Asia in time if America hadn’t acted. But did America actually gain anything tangible?
Nothing the President could discern.
He was just glad his presidency was almost over. Both the Provincial and Centralist Parties were preparing for the summer Conventions. As was common with outgoing Presidents, no one cared much what he thought of the proceedings.
Bland did manage one act upon his own initiative. He fired Theodore Roosevelt from his post as Secretary of the Navy. In truth, he hated the man by this point and Roosevelt’s arrogance and presumption had come to a boiling point. Bland could no longer turn the other cheek when Roosevelt criticized his administration’s priorities in public. It had been agreed that, while the Centralist was in office, he would steer clear of anything not directly related to his office.
The deal broken, Bland was able to relieve himself of the man’s presence. Of course, had Bland thought this through, he would have realized that Roosevelt was angling for this as it would reestablish himself as being a Centralist at heart before that party’s Convention.
If I recall, this particular Hohenzollern was married to one of the Bonaparte girls.
I'll try to add some facts and figures on industry. For the whole, most technology is close to OTL but maybe a decade or so behind due to advances lost in the British and French Revolutions as well as some advances which would have been made under a Hohenzollern Germany.
I believe your story reached the year 1900 already...
Thanks, I keep doing that. I've corrected to 1901/02.
Sorry there is still one:
You are talking about this guy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl,_Prince_of_Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen?
I was talking about one of the rich American Hohenzollern girls marrying one of the German Hohenzollern of a cadet branch. Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen is an old catholic branch.
In OTL lots of rich American girls married into European royalty and high nobility at that time.
Benjamin Franklin - 1776
George Washington - 1782
John Jay – 1788
John Laurens – 1794
James Madison – 1800
James Monroe – 1806
Aaron Burr – 1812
John Langton – 1816 (ascended after assassination of Burr, died in office one month before Rufus King sworn in)
Rufus King – 1818
Jose Fernandez – 1822 (ascended after death of Rufus King)
Philip Hamilton – 1824 (ascended after death of Jose Fernandez)
Henry Clay – 1824
Alexander Macomb – 1830
John Sergeant – 1836
Joseph Davis – 1842 (ascended after death of John Sergeant for final four months of term)
James Polk – 1842
James Buchanan – 1848
Stephan Douglas – 1854
William Seward – 1860
Abraham Lincoln – 1863 (ascended after death of William Seward)
Abraham Lincoln – 1866
Hannibal Hamlin – 1872 (ascended after death of Abraham Lincoln, completed final six weeks of term)
John Bingham – 1872
Samuel Tilden - 1878
Samuel Randall - 1884
John Thompson - 1890
Richard Bland - 1896
TBD - 1902
Georgetown, New Jersey
Over the past months (really the past two years), the Provincial and Centralist Parties would wage internal warfare preparing for the summer Conventions. Dozens of candidates presented themselves or had their proxies do so in their name.
There were no shortfall of candidates:
The Provincial Party offered up Adlai Stevenson, William Jennings Bryan among others.
The Centralists would debate the merits of William McKinley of Wabash, Theodore Roosevelt of New York and even William Howard Taft, also of Wabash.
In truth, none of these men particularly inspired the electorate. Both parties would actively seek the leadership of the most popular man in America, General Hohenzollern. By blood and marriage, he was related to the Hohenzollern, Washington, Burr, Arnold and Bonaparte dynasties, a virtual who's-who of American history. He also had few open political positions. That was a bonus.
The downside was that the good General had few political inclinations at all. He loathed the politicians whom messed with the military over his long career and resented the fools in Manhattan, even those whom begged for him to seek the nomination over the past year were refused point blank. However, after near a year on the shelf and watching the deteriorating situation in Europe, Hohenzollern would finally consent to seek the nomination.
It was just a matter of choosing which side. Eventually, Hohenzollern selected the Centralists. Mainly he did so for two reasons:
1. He had grown to despise the pompous and bombastic Theodore Roosevelt and wanted to keep the man out of the Presidential Mansion.
2. For the past several months, William Jennings Bryon, leader of the radical wing of the Provincial Party, had viciously assaulted Hohenzollern on the campaign trail out of fear that he would have to face him in the Provincial Convention. He derided Hohenzollern as a German potentate and positioned himself as a "man of the people".
This irritated Hohenzollern to no end and as much as anything prompted him to throw his hat in the ring (or allow others to throw his hat in the ring). Within days, the Centralist Party Convention swung away from the debate between the colorless McKinley, the bland Taft and the "traitor" Roosevelt. In less than three votes, Hohenzollern had his majority to gain the nomination.
Despite frequent threats by the Gallic Kingdoms, the Latin King of Spain, Portugal and Italy would consolidate his power over Tuscany. He dispatched his son to jointly rule the entire Italian Peninsula with his new wife, Maria of Tuscany. The Gauls threatened war but the King would hold them back for two reasons:
1. He didn't want Tuscany for his dynasty anyway and didn't believe that the annexation by the Latin Bourbons would be any kind of threat to Gaul. He had yet to see a single person agitate to leave democratic Piedmont in order to live under the thumb of the Latin Bourbon authoritarianism.
2. The situation in Germany threatened to boil over into the petty states of the German Confederation where German nationalist sentiment often moved towards the House of Hohenzollern. If Spain and Italy were not threats to Gaul, a unified German without question would be.
The King directed his Ministers to expand the system of alliances of the western nations into a new League of Armed Neutrality. Gaul, Britain, Ireland, the Dutch Republic, Flanders, Burgundy, the Rhineland and the German Confederation expanded their cooperation to include a new treaty of mutual assistance at sea that would, over the next year, become the League. Eventually, Russia, the Scandinavian Empire and even America would be invited to join though all three would remain aloof for the time being.
The first full-scale battle between Hohenzollern and Habsburg forces of the 20th century would occur north of Dresden. The Kingdom of Germany's forces had pressed through half of Saxony en route to "liberating" the Kingdom. It had taken months for the ponderous machinery of the Habsburg "Empire" of Germany to mass and rush to the aid of their ally, the King of Saxony.
The first battle of Dresden would prove a confused affair as the Hohenzollern forces of Brandenburg, Magdeburg, Mecklenburg, Hanover, Schleswig and Holstein would crash into those of Saxony, Sudetenland, Austria, Bavaria, Swabia and Thuringia.
In short order, it was easy to see that the new repeating rifles had made modern warfare a defensive struggle, altering three thousand years of strategy in which Alexander's phalanx's, Roman columns, Arab and Mongol cavalry, British squares and massed French infantry charges had been made obsolete.
Within weeks, the war ground down as both sides sought to dig in and attempt to flank the enemy lines.
Just wanted to express my appreciation for this thread. I sometimes forget to like every post when I binge read them so in lieu of that, you have my thanks for the entertainment mister Alt History Buff.
George Frederick Buonaparte Hohenzollern would manage to defeat the challenge of William Jennings Bryan. Hohenzollern would barely campaign, allowing his managers to play upon his military service and some fairly uncontroversial and popular positions on major issues. Bryan's campaign would mainly revolve around condemning his opponent as an elite. However, thirty years of military service in some of the most inhospitable American possessions would hardly resonate with American voters as "elite" and his accusation of the General as being a foreign prince at heart was outright hilarious. Hohenzollern had done the bitterly hard work which helped make America what it was. Bryan was still campaigning on "Free Silver", as if that were still a real political issue.
Hohenzollern's Deputy President was former Congressman Robert Borden of Nova Scotia (though he had spent much of his life in New Jersey where he had served in the Provincial Senate). The job had initially been offered to Theodore Roosevelt but the man declined, seeing the post as little more than a waiting game to see if the President died. Instead, for the services of his supporters in the General Election, Roosevelt would be offered his choice of posts in the government. He opted for the Secretary of State where he could dictate the direction of American foreign policy, especially as concerned with the Pacific theatre. The steady, dependable and competent William Howard Taft was made the new Ambassador (i.e. defacto Governor) of Nippon which remained precariously off the coast of the Chinese Empire. William McKinley would opt for retirement.
Seeing the old radical Bryan defeated once again and out of touch with the modern politics, the Provincials would also look to a new generation of leadership.
By winter of 1902, the war in Saxony was grinding to a bloody halt as the new artillery and rifles would make the aggressor of any engagement pay in blood. Both the Kingdom and Empire of Germany would suffer huge casualties even as they called up men in unprecedented quantities. Over the first few months of the war, a hundred and twenty thousand men would die in the trenches. Many more would freeze to death over the winter.
The King of Poland would gaze upon the western war with grave concern. The huge armies being levied by the Germans would bring to mind the poor performance of the Polish forces in the last war. With even greater numbers in the field, it was looking increasingly likely that a unified Germany would outclass what was rapidly appearing to be an obsolete Polish army.
The King, like his predecessors, would realize that the German exclave of Prussia, now ruled by a cadet branch of the House of Scandinavia, would remain a target for any northern Protestant German power. And it would have to march through Poland to get there. For that matter, the German-speaking region in Silesia...or ALL of Silesia...was also openly coveted.
This was getting increasingly uncomfortable. The King would seek a like-minded ally anxious to keep the status quo. Gaul and her western allies were a possibility but had yet to do anything more than help suppress German nationalism in the German Confederation.
More desperate...and dangerous....options had to be considered.
The King would soon receive an emissary from Moscow where the Czar was looking increasingly concerned as well.
Separate names with a comma.