Your characterization of our man Charles Edward seems a little off. I had the same misgivings but a lot of these character flaws you were describing actually came about after the failure of the 1745 rising. He was apparently gallant, charming, charismatic, and a great leader by all accounts, but was driven to the drink by the lasting failure of his cause
Odyssey of Fritz, the Turncoat Prince
- Thread starter Alt History Buff
- Start date
I have to say that I agree. I was always under the impression that Bonnie Prince Charlie was, as you say, gallant, charming, charismatic and a great leader.
Is it just me or are all your timelines Brit-screws?
Because things seem to only be going outright badly for them and it seems a recurring pattern of your timelines that the Brits either get absorbed or catch the stupid.
It's making it hard to enjoy an otherwise good timeline to see everyone but them acting rationally.
Because things seem to only be going outright badly for them and it seems a recurring pattern of your timelines that the Brits either get absorbed or catch the stupid.
It's making it hard to enjoy an otherwise good timeline to see everyone but them acting rationally.
By definition, virtually all TL's HAVE to be Brit-Screws. Great Britain was the paramount power for the better part of 200 years. Virtually any change would likely be a reduction in British power. Note that this TL was actually BEFORE the rise of Great Britain above France, Russia, etc.
I'm not sure that I agree. Most contemporary references to the OTL Jacobite Rebellion of 1745, only a few years after this TL, referred to Charlie as divisive, arrogant, unwilling to listen and perhaps the primary reason why the Rebellion failed when it did.
Though even if Frederick were leading the rebellion, I doubt that a divided Scotland would hold up against superior English resources.
I have always found this confusing to be honest. Much of what I had read until about 6 month ago gave the impression of Bonnie Prince Charlie as all of the above but then much since has been the opposite. I will admit that much of my view of Charlie originated with Our Island Story, hardly a reliable source, however.
One of the recent entries I read on Wikipedia referred to Charles having intimated to the Scots that he was in contact with English Jacobites and they only learned, during the campaign, that he hadn't spoken to a single Englishman since he departed France. Naturally, there was no English uprising or support in any numbers.
He tended to listen to his Irish advisors from the French Irish regiment that came with him instead of the local Scots and foolishly picked poor ground at Culloden against the advice of General Murray.
By the time he left Scotland, no one trusted him. Even if he wasn't a drunk by this time, he was not someone worth supporting.
It's not that Britain has to do as well, it's that they seem to be suffering from the stupid compared to everyone else with France seeming to get the drop on them and the local colonists seeming to be too independent minded already.
It just seems very stupid and without knowledge of how the government worked at the time.
Again, a Brit-screw is not unusual but the manner of all the British figures seeming to constantly fail is.
After all, why did Britain even join the war when "their side" was failing? It looks so clearly suicidal and the governments of the time were not this foolhardy.
I don't think I'd go that far. Most of what I am doing relative to Great Britain and the colonists actually echoes Britain's actions and capabilities in the War of Austrian Succession.
OTL:
Britain tried to remain as detached from the continent as they could whenever they could. This is reasonable as Britain usually had little to gain in the various continental wars.
The actions of the New Englanders taking Louisbourg with little to no assistance from Britain (largely on their own initiative) was similar to OTL and many other attacks on Canada's frontier were led by the colonists. In fact, very few British soldiers or ships did much in the Americas after the disaster at Cartagena. It was fought by and between colonials.
I don't believe that Great Britain would ever stand by and allow Spain to conquer Naples and Sicily while France threatened the Austrian Netherlands. The latter is a no brainer. Automatic war there even if the best outcome for Britain is the status quo. They could never allow France to control the southern approaches to the channel.
Given the way that British government dysfunction worked and the hard lines between Whig and Tories, Walpole always trying to keep the nation out of war as his default setting, and the King trying to protect Hanover no matter the cost (peace in this scenario doing a better job protecting it than war), it seems that this scenario is short of "stupid".
Note that very little has changed from OTL.
Most of the events taking place actually occurred in OTL: the conquest of Louisbourg, the fall of Madras, the Spanish Bourbon desire for conquest of Sicily and Naples.
The biggest changes here include:
The War of Austrian Succession timing becomes part of the War of Polish Succession. I feel this would actually strengthen Maria Theresa at home.
The Irish invasion is something I brought out of left field but often thought this would be a smart move on the part of France and Spain as it would immediately remove all British soldiers from the field on the continent.
Piedmont-Sardinia switched sides in this scenario and their Kings were second only to the Hohenzollerns in ruthless and opportunistic pragmatism, just on a smaller scale. Note they were also related to the Stuarts and they held the title of "Pretender" for many decades.
Chapter 28: Calm Before the Storm
Chapter 28: Calm Before the Storm
February, 1742
Paris
King Louis XV was disturbed to learn that his initial assumptions on the state of his nation's finances were, indeed, far worse than he'd imagined. Indeed, France was beyond broke. Still paying off the debts of previous wars (like the war of Spanish Succession now decades in the past), the poorly run Treasury was empty. Now, several years of war had resulted in the capture of part of Milan and traded Louisbourg for Antigua, Barbados and a few flyspeck islands in the West Indies. Louis XV already HAD a dozen others. Why care about a couple more?
He would not know of the capture of Madras for a few more weeks.
Still, gaining a few territories whose revenues yielded a few hundred thousand francs a year was nice...but not if it cost tens of millions of francs in war expenditures!
Indeed, Louis always thought of this war as strategic. Eliminate the threats to his nation (really, only Austria was a threat to invade) as the primary goal, not acquisition of still more slave islands or even gaining supremacy over border territories. From that standpoint, the war had been a partial success.
He just had no idea how to end it.
The War in Ireland had been intended largely as a distraction, a way to force Britain to the bargaining table. It had also been intended to ensure Britain would not dispatch troops to the Netherlands but Louis had already chosen to suspend any major offensives.
If only he could find a way to separate the pseudo-allies. He knew Austria, the Dutch Republic and Britain (and Hanover) all had different goals and would only support their own focus. This was similar to Louis XV and his cousin Louis I of Spain, whom now apparently cared only about Gibraltar.
Maria Theresa gave him his out. Duke Francis of Lorraine wanted to be the King of Bohemia, Archduke of Austria, King of Hungary, Holy Roman Emperor (eventually when Charles VII of Bavaria eventually died), hell maybe Byzantine Emperor if Constantinople fell.
Was the Duke willing to give up his patrimony?
A trade had been suggested years ago. If the Duke offered up Lorraine to France, then France would have no reason to object to such an alliance as the House of Habsburg-Lorraine would be far from French borders (except in the Austrian Netherlands, which the King could accept). He knew how much Francis loved his home Duchy but suspected that, now that he was a childless widower, Maria Theresa was looking better than ever. The Archduchess was equally smitten with the man she'd partially grown up with at the Vienna Court (assuming she had given up on the Prussian).
Austria and France had reached an equilibrium. France would not advance further into the Netherlands, nor molest Austria's march on Constantinople. Louis XV had even prevailed upon his cousin Louis I of France not to hinder the Austrian supply shipments flowing past Naples in the Adriatic. In return, Maria Theresa did not launch an offensive in the Netherlands, nor did she make overly many moves towards Italy.
It was all a matter of allowing all parties to bow out gracefully...or at least enough that the last participant would have little choice in the matter.
Maria Theresa had lost much - Naples, Milan and Sicily - while gaining little. He put her preferred (non-related) candidate on the Polish throne and taken some territory in the Balkans, though it was unclear how much would go to Austria, how much to Russia and how much would be independent. In truth, the only tangible benefit from such a long and expensive war may be ensuring that she retained her core (non-Italian) thrones.
Louis XV had a deceptively subtle mind and realized that Maria Theresa was willing to bargain. His cousin Louis I had already received most of what he desired in the war.
That was something to work with.
The true trouble-maker would be Britain, always on the outskirts of European politics (both literally and figuratively).
London
Robert Walpole was getting increasingly desperate. He'd learned of the loss of Barbados and the barbaric stripping of the valuable (and profitable) island of her citizens. The upper class British were shipped home, the lower class to Georgia and the all-important slaves to the French West Indies. By the time Britain could do anything about it, the place would likely be deserted.
And, at the moment, he could do nothing.
With both Ireland and Scotland under invasion, the Royal Navy was forced to remain in local waters, attempting to prevent an even larger transfer of troops. Spies along the French coast offered mixed reports: French plans for and army of 50,000 men invading Ireland and others claimed no Bourbon interest at all in expanding the invasions.
This meant the majority of the Royal Navy sat along the Channel, the Irish Sea and the Atlantic prepared to interdict an invasion that may or may not be coming.
Walpole was getting less and less popular to his lack of surprise.
King George II and the Duke of Cumberland marched north with an army of Levies, a few regulars and a few regiments of German mercenaries surprisingly offered by the King of Prussia to his "uncle".
Now he could only wait.
St. Augustine, Florida, Atlantic Coast
"Captain" Lawrence Washington raised a glass to the "conquest". Eight hundred colonial soldiers under the governor of Virginia "invade" the largest Spanish stronghold along Florida's Atlantic Coast.
It consisted of 400 sickly Spaniards under the care of 20 drunken soldiers. The entire defense consisted of the soldiers falling back into a mud fort and firing a solo round from a rusted cannon..which promptly burst and killed five of the soldiers.
They surrendered after "losing a quarter to their men to death and the rest to injury" in this glorious resistance.
Washington shook his head. The Governor was already promising to request land grants to the "heroic conquerors" but wondered who the hell would want to live in this dump?
The other "significant" towns in Florida were St. Marks and Pensacola, both past the Peninsula, along the southern coast of the continent. Without adequate naval support to protect the colonial army as it sailed past Cuba, there seemed to be little opportunity to serve King George II any further.
Then some idiot recommended marching across Florida to reach St. Marks by foot.
To his chagrin, that idiot was Lawrence Washington himself who volunteered to lead it.
February, 1742
Paris
King Louis XV was disturbed to learn that his initial assumptions on the state of his nation's finances were, indeed, far worse than he'd imagined. Indeed, France was beyond broke. Still paying off the debts of previous wars (like the war of Spanish Succession now decades in the past), the poorly run Treasury was empty. Now, several years of war had resulted in the capture of part of Milan and traded Louisbourg for Antigua, Barbados and a few flyspeck islands in the West Indies. Louis XV already HAD a dozen others. Why care about a couple more?
He would not know of the capture of Madras for a few more weeks.
Still, gaining a few territories whose revenues yielded a few hundred thousand francs a year was nice...but not if it cost tens of millions of francs in war expenditures!
Indeed, Louis always thought of this war as strategic. Eliminate the threats to his nation (really, only Austria was a threat to invade) as the primary goal, not acquisition of still more slave islands or even gaining supremacy over border territories. From that standpoint, the war had been a partial success.
He just had no idea how to end it.
The War in Ireland had been intended largely as a distraction, a way to force Britain to the bargaining table. It had also been intended to ensure Britain would not dispatch troops to the Netherlands but Louis had already chosen to suspend any major offensives.
If only he could find a way to separate the pseudo-allies. He knew Austria, the Dutch Republic and Britain (and Hanover) all had different goals and would only support their own focus. This was similar to Louis XV and his cousin Louis I of Spain, whom now apparently cared only about Gibraltar.
Maria Theresa gave him his out. Duke Francis of Lorraine wanted to be the King of Bohemia, Archduke of Austria, King of Hungary, Holy Roman Emperor (eventually when Charles VII of Bavaria eventually died), hell maybe Byzantine Emperor if Constantinople fell.
Was the Duke willing to give up his patrimony?
A trade had been suggested years ago. If the Duke offered up Lorraine to France, then France would have no reason to object to such an alliance as the House of Habsburg-Lorraine would be far from French borders (except in the Austrian Netherlands, which the King could accept). He knew how much Francis loved his home Duchy but suspected that, now that he was a childless widower, Maria Theresa was looking better than ever. The Archduchess was equally smitten with the man she'd partially grown up with at the Vienna Court (assuming she had given up on the Prussian).
Austria and France had reached an equilibrium. France would not advance further into the Netherlands, nor molest Austria's march on Constantinople. Louis XV had even prevailed upon his cousin Louis I of France not to hinder the Austrian supply shipments flowing past Naples in the Adriatic. In return, Maria Theresa did not launch an offensive in the Netherlands, nor did she make overly many moves towards Italy.
It was all a matter of allowing all parties to bow out gracefully...or at least enough that the last participant would have little choice in the matter.
Maria Theresa had lost much - Naples, Milan and Sicily - while gaining little. He put her preferred (non-related) candidate on the Polish throne and taken some territory in the Balkans, though it was unclear how much would go to Austria, how much to Russia and how much would be independent. In truth, the only tangible benefit from such a long and expensive war may be ensuring that she retained her core (non-Italian) thrones.
Louis XV had a deceptively subtle mind and realized that Maria Theresa was willing to bargain. His cousin Louis I had already received most of what he desired in the war.
That was something to work with.
The true trouble-maker would be Britain, always on the outskirts of European politics (both literally and figuratively).
London
Robert Walpole was getting increasingly desperate. He'd learned of the loss of Barbados and the barbaric stripping of the valuable (and profitable) island of her citizens. The upper class British were shipped home, the lower class to Georgia and the all-important slaves to the French West Indies. By the time Britain could do anything about it, the place would likely be deserted.
And, at the moment, he could do nothing.
With both Ireland and Scotland under invasion, the Royal Navy was forced to remain in local waters, attempting to prevent an even larger transfer of troops. Spies along the French coast offered mixed reports: French plans for and army of 50,000 men invading Ireland and others claimed no Bourbon interest at all in expanding the invasions.
This meant the majority of the Royal Navy sat along the Channel, the Irish Sea and the Atlantic prepared to interdict an invasion that may or may not be coming.
Walpole was getting less and less popular to his lack of surprise.
King George II and the Duke of Cumberland marched north with an army of Levies, a few regulars and a few regiments of German mercenaries surprisingly offered by the King of Prussia to his "uncle".
Now he could only wait.
St. Augustine, Florida, Atlantic Coast
"Captain" Lawrence Washington raised a glass to the "conquest". Eight hundred colonial soldiers under the governor of Virginia "invade" the largest Spanish stronghold along Florida's Atlantic Coast.
It consisted of 400 sickly Spaniards under the care of 20 drunken soldiers. The entire defense consisted of the soldiers falling back into a mud fort and firing a solo round from a rusted cannon..which promptly burst and killed five of the soldiers.
They surrendered after "losing a quarter to their men to death and the rest to injury" in this glorious resistance.
Washington shook his head. The Governor was already promising to request land grants to the "heroic conquerors" but wondered who the hell would want to live in this dump?
The other "significant" towns in Florida were St. Marks and Pensacola, both past the Peninsula, along the southern coast of the continent. Without adequate naval support to protect the colonial army as it sailed past Cuba, there seemed to be little opportunity to serve King George II any further.
Then some idiot recommended marching across Florida to reach St. Marks by foot.
To his chagrin, that idiot was Lawrence Washington himself who volunteered to lead it.
Which nicely moves her to the back of the line of Italian nationalism. Austria was never going to be able to keep those lands. But with the Turks out of Europe and a nice big buffer of Balkan nations and the PLC, she can turn all her attention North and West.
Ouch that is going to hurt like a son of bitch.
Emperor Charles VI offered Infante Manuel, the runaway Prince of Portugal whom had served in his armies, the throne of Poland. Supported by the Russians as well, Manuel agreed. Like Frederick, he had arrived in Austria without permission of his father and sought to serve abroad. Both Austria and Russia (and one Prussia) had been satisfied he'd be controllable, more so than any other candidate.
I have read in an Wikipedia article that Infante Manuel obtained the Blessing of his brother who was King of Portugal at that time before he began his Service in the austrian Army. Is TTL different? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_V_of_Portugal#His_Majesty's_Government
I have read in an Wikipedia article that Infante Manuel obtained the Blessing of his brother who was King of Portugal at that time before he began his Service in the austrian Army. Is TTL different? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_V_of_Portugal#His_Majesty's_Government
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
Lawrence Washington should be careful to not catch a deadly disease marching through the Floridian swamp!
I don't know if Manuel's brother was an impediment or support to his falling from the "preferred" list of Kings of Poland (per Russia, Austria and Prussia) in OTL as it was those countries determining that Augustus of Saxony made as much sense as any. There may be more reasons why Manuel was replaced by Augustus but I have been unable to find out exactly why. It is possible he was never really "offered" the throne but just on the short list of who the great powers determined would take it.
I agree Manuel led an adventurer's life, running away from home to serve in foreign armies (like Frederick in this TL). I'm basing part of Frederick's character on Manuel's adventures.
Yeah, I'm seeing that Lawrence may end up as in OTL, when his health was wrecked in the Cartagena debacle.
I can only say that I am waiting for more of this Timeline[/QUOTE ]
Thanks.