O tempora, O mores! The Catiline Conspiracy suceeds

[isabella]

Marius is such a fascinating and seemingly contradictory figure; only marginally better, sure, but definitely better than Sulla, but ultimately it's arguable his exploits were even worse for the Republic in the long term. IMO he probably owes most of his whitewashing to his association with the most famous military reform of the Republican era, with his more problematic politics consigned to a footnote to his military exploits.

I have the opposite idea about Marius as person: he was worse than Sulla and he was the direct responsible of the start of the fall of the Roman Republic. If Marius had NOT tried to steal from the rightful Consul the command of the expedition against Mithridate, violating practically every laws of Rome, Sulla would have NEVER marched on Rome and if Marius had NOT attached Rome just after the departure of Sulla, killing or forcing to exile many friends or relatives of Sulla, the latter’s reconquest of Rome and Dictatorship would NEVER happen…

Also the fact that the OTL free reign of Sulla and his crew really set in motion Catiline, the Triumvirates, kinda the whole death of the Republic. Even if Marius was an absolute garbage human being (which he kinda was), actually getting a few Populares reforms through addressing the collapse of the smallholding farmer and the swelling of the urban poor would be huuuuge in potentially preserving the Republic without attaching an Emperor to it.

That was NOT something who Marius had done… the last who tried to do it was Drusus and he was closer to Sulla‘s party than Marius‘.

 

[Lord Enot]

I have the opposite idea about Marius as person: he was worse than Sulla and he was the direct responsible of the start of the fall of the Roman Republic.

I strongly disagree. The fall of the Roman Republic began much earlier than the beginning of the life of Marius. All because of the system of government of Rome R, which has not changed much since its foundation, and which was not designed for Rome to become a power that will embrace half of the Mediterranean Sea, will continue to distribute land for veterans only in Italy + will receive a giant flow of slaves that ravaged the main middle class of the Romans - that is, farmers. Although there may be many claims against Marius, and most of them will be fair, but at the time of the beginning of his political career, the institutions of power in Rome had already been reached to their limit.

 

[isabella]

I strongly disagree. The fall of the Roman Republic began much earlier than the beginning of the life of Marius. All because of the system of government of Rome R, which has not changed much since its foundation, and which was not designed for Rome to become a power that will embrace half of the Mediterranean Sea, will continue to distribute land for veterans only in Italy + will receive a giant flow of slaves that ravaged the main middle class of the Romans - that is, farmers. Although there may be many claims against Marius, and most of them will be fair, but at the time of the beginning of his political career, the institutions of power in Rome had already been reached to their limit.

True, but I was specifically referring to the fact who Sulla is often accused to having started that process (not true under any aspect) when he mostly reacted to Marius’ actions so the blame need to go to the latter (and the bloodbath during Marius and Cinna’s rule on Rome was not inferior to the one under Sulla in my opinion)

 

[Herucalmo]

That was NOT something who Marius had done… the last who tried to do it was Drusus and he was closer to Sulla‘s party than Marius‘.

Sure, but like, we know what the Sullan Optimates were and what they and their successors did with supreme power once the proscriptions ended and they could reshape the Republic however they wanted- Sulla himself made a bunch of like centrist procedural and organizational tweaks to the political structure and administration of the Republic doing the iconic image of the Cursus Honorum, and then after him nothing but the gridlock and elite entrenchment that birthed the first Triumvirate in response. What other path forward is there but like Marius living just long enough to kill Sulla and secure a more orderly and lasting victory for the Marians, if real material change to the class structure of Rome is ever going to be effected?

 

[isabella]

Sure, but like, we know what the Sullan Optimates were and what they and their successors did with supreme power once the proscriptions ended any they could reshape the Republic however they wanted- Sulla himself made a bunch of like centrist procedural and organizational tweaks to the political structure and administration of the Republic doing the iconic image of the Cursus Honorum, and then after him nothing but the gridlock and elite entrenchment that birthed the first Triumvirate in response. What other path forward is there but like Marius living just long enough to kill Sulla and secure a more orderly and lasting victory for the Marians, if real material change to the class structure of Rome is ever going to be effected?

Marius and his allies would likely doing nothing of that as they had not tried to do anything of sort when they had the chance.
Killing off Marius earlier (at the end of the Social war) would be much better for Rome as that would prevent everything happened once Marius decided who he wanted the command of the expedition against Mithridates

 

[minifidel]

I strongly disagree. The fall of the Roman Republic began much earlier than the beginning of the life of Marius. All because of the system of government of Rome R, which has not changed much since its foundation, and which was not designed for Rome to become a power that will embrace half of the Mediterranean Sea, will continue to distribute land for veterans only in Italy + will receive a giant flow of slaves that ravaged the main middle class of the Romans - that is, farmers. Although there may be many claims against Marius, and most of them will be fair, but at the time of the beginning of his political career, the institutions of power in Rome had already been reached to their limit.

The Roman Republic was set down the path to its inevitable end when the Gracchi brothers were murdered for their ideas - ideas which, in an added ironic twist, would ultimately be implemented anyway with the end of the Social Wars.

 

[isabella]

The Roman Republic was set down the path to its inevitable end when the Gracchi brothers were murdered for their ideas - ideas which, in an added ironic twist, would ultimately be implemented anyway with the end of the Social Wars.

I see Drusus‘ death and Marius tentative of stripping Sulla of the command of the war against Mithridates as the final steps for the inevitable end of the Republic, as the consequences of murders of the Gracchi brothers and the military reform of Marius could still be stopped before that

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

So with Pompey having returned to Italy, I'm taking it the TL is up to 61 BC; am I right?

 

[Zenevidas]

Great TL