No Reformation scenario: is German unification accelerated or delayed?

Let's consider a scenario where Reformation does not succeed and the German states (and Western Europe in general) remain all Catholic.

In such scenario, would the German unification would be accelerated or would be delayed (maybe not happening at all)?

* Changes of scenario that we could consider that favour acceleration of unification:

- There is no Thirty Years War, at least as we know it.
- It is unlikely that concepts like 'Kulturkampf' would be ever developed.
- Prussia is less likely to form as we know it, so probably the Habsburgs would remain uncontested in the German sphere.

* Changes of scenario that we could consider that favour delay of unification:

- The Habsburgs were less prone to promote a unification based on nationalistic grounds, unless they are pressed for that (and there is probably no Prussia here for that).
- There is less room for militaristic actions withput an actor like Prussia, so the relations between the German states are likely to remain loose as long as stay 'voluntary'.
- It is less likely that a common enemy i.e. France would act as a unifying trigger.

Of course we could argue that, even if Prussia does not form, maybe other states like Saxony might assume the role of 'Northern counterpart' of Austria, even if not based on religious background but rather cultural/economic/whatever.

There is also the question about how tied or untied would some peripheral entities stay in such scenario, like the Netherlands, Switzerland, Northern Italy, Bohemia, Hungary etc.

Thoughts?
 
Okay, so it was Brandenburg who inherited Ducal Prussia- meaning we can pursue the OTL line of monarchs, at least for a while (depending on your chosen PoD, of course). However, Prussia's coast undoubtedly helped the economy tremendously. So while I'm inclined to believe german unification would generally be about on time, maybe stunted by a decade or two
 
Okay, so it was Brandenburg who inherited Ducal Prussia- meaning we can pursue the OTL line of monarchs, at least for a while (depending on your chosen PoD, of course). However, Prussia's coast undoubtedly helped the economy tremendously. So while I'm inclined to believe german unification would generally be about on time, maybe stunted by a decade or two

In this scenario it is even unlikely that Ducal Prussia would exist, as it was secularized through embracing the Reformation; without Reformation it is likely that would remain as a Monastic state for longer. Brandenburg would be in worst position for acquiring Pomerania or Silesia, so probably Russia would advance further to the West if they defeat Sweden as IOTL.
 
No or a stunted Reformation probably slows down the idea of nationalism in general, given the role of the Peace of Westphalia in establishing and enforcing ideas such as state sovereignty. An unbroken Catholic Christendom does not necessitate states as the primary guarantor of people's rights and safety. I suspect there would be a role, maybe even a significant one, for the Holy Roman Empire, but it's connection to German-ness would be attenuated.
 
Okay, so it was Brandenburg who inherited Ducal Prussia- meaning we can pursue the OTL line of monarchs, at least for a while (depending on your chosen PoD, of course). However, Prussia's coast undoubtedly helped the economy tremendously. So while I'm inclined to believe german unification would generally be about on time, maybe stunted by a decade or two
Absolutely unlikely. In the more likely scenario the Habsburg will be the ones to unify Germany (a Germany who will include at least Bohemia and Netherlands other than Austria and possibly Switzerland, Burgundy and Alsace-Lorraine) centralizing the Holy Roman Empire
 
Last edited:
If POD is lack of widespread reformation, that it's in 1517, it might save Louis II's life, so I'm not sure about Bohemia.
Bohemia was part of the Holy Roman Empire, independently from the identity of its ruler so will be most likely part of ATL Germany in any case
 
Bohemia was part of the Holy Roman Empire, independently from the identity of its ruler so will be most likely part of ATL Germany in any case

Well, if said ruler rules also Poland, Lithuania and Hungary than he might be able to do something to prevent loss of Bohemia.
 
There will be no german unification in this case Germany is already unified

HRE was not 'Germany'. Another question is if an eventual 'modern' German Empire would be more open to include other peripheral non-German entities which existed in the HRE like i.e. Bohemia.
 
HRE was not 'Germany'. Another question is if an eventual 'modern' German Empire would be more open to include other peripheral non-German entities which existed in the HRE like i.e. Bohemia.

Is Germany in your opinion only possible then with an enlightenment era equivalent occurring? Unless that is the view, I cannot see how a Holy Roman Empire would not constitute ‘Germany’ at least in its sectors that this applies.
 
In these kinds of discussions, one should not forget that we're talking about at least four centuries of extensive butterflies. And without a Martin Luther and his enormous influence on the German language, it is not too unlikely that, if pan-cultural nationalism should arise, which, again, is not necessarily a given, there will not be a single pan-German state. Rather I could see multiple "German" states arise in different cultural regions since the individual dialects could very well have diverged too much to find a large single common. Hell, Luther's Bible came with a small dictionary for the different dialects for the different regions, and to this day IOTL there are a number of dialects like Low Franconian which are closer to neighboring languages like Dutch or Danish than they are to Standard German.

Four centuries of completely different European history will inevitably change the European landscape. There might be pan-German nationalism, there even might be a Standardized German language, but without Luther, what constitutes as German and what doesn't will definitely change. Maybe "Germany", a term which was always very diffuse and was not without a reason very controversial ever since 1815, includes the Dutch, maybe it will exclude the Rhineland, or, with enough cultural divergences, something more exotic occurs.
Otherwise, I have to agree with John7755 in that the HRE could and probably would function as TTL's Germany.
 
Last edited:
Well, if said ruler rules also Poland, Lithuania and Hungary than he might be able to do something to prevent loss of Bohemia.
Pretty unlikely seeing this kind of union and why loss? Centralizing the HRE do not mean who the previous rulers will lose any lands (still the Habsburgs will go pretty hard in trying to get Bohemian crown and is pretty likely who sooner or later will get it)
 
Pretty unlikely seeing this kind of union and why loss? Centralizing the HRE do not mean who the previous rulers will lose any lands (still the Habsburgs will go pretty hard in trying to get Bohemian crown and is pretty likely who sooner or later will get it)

If Louis II/his kid outlives Sigismund II Augustus that the is gonna be crowned king of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania.
 
Top