No Marx, what happens to the left

Suppose Karl Marx had not been born or maybe just born a girl or died before he started writing.

I think that there would still be radical demands from less well off folk.

Would radical interpretations of Christianity be more significant?
 
Christian Socialism becomes significant?
I don't think Anarchism and its similars would become more sucessful, but that's because I don't believe Anarchism works.
 
I think we are more likely to see a wider variety of socialist schools of thought.

Although Marx was fantastic RE his being the father of sociology, in his own lifetime people with disparate and very differing oppinions to himself tried to borrow from the marxist lable. The exile of the Anarchists from the internationale was an excellent example of how adherance to the lable was more important than real solidarity because the lable itself worked as a platform.

Without the class warfare being a neccesity, you might find that a lot more intentional communities set up by rich people with a disdain for capitalism, could become the face of socialism.
Christian Socialism becomes significant?
I don't think Anarchism and its similars would become more sucessful, but that's because I don't believe Anarchism works.
Whilst I disagree with the last part (as an anarchist myself :p), I dont think that the potential success of ideas is inherently what makes them appealing.

Bolshevism was prior to the revolution something of a laughing stock in international circles because of how obviously dystopian it would be, something in turn predicted by Bakunin years before.
Fascism not only had to reject a hell of a lot of reality, but uniquely for any ideology failed on its own terms, but briefly dominated europe and still has political power today.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
I think we are more likely to see a wider variety of socialist schools of thought.

Although Marx was fantastic RE his being the father of sociology, in his own lifetime people with disparate and very differing oppinions to himself tried to borrow from the marxist lable. The exile of the Anarchists from the internationale was an excellent example of how adherance to the lable was more important than real solidarity because the lable itself worked as a platform.

Without the class warfare being a neccesity, you might find that a lot more intentional communities set up by rich people with a disdain for capitalism, could become the face of socialism.

Whilst I disagree with the last part (as an anarchist myself :p), I dont think that the potential success of ideas is inherently what makes them appealing.

Bolshevism was prior to the revolution something of a laughing stock in international circles because of how obviously dystopian it would be, something in turn predicted by Bakunin years before.
Fascism not only had to reject a hell of a lot of reality, but uniquely for any ideology failed on its own terms, but briefly dominated europe and still has political power today.
Anarchism as a concept is quite funny
 
Suppose Karl Marx had not been born or maybe just born a girl or died before he started writing.

I think that there would still be radical demands from less well off folk.

Would radical interpretations of Christianity be more significant?

I expect you'd get more socially conservative/economically liberal (in the sense of supporting higher regulation, tariffs, etc.) political movements. I'm not sure whether you'd classify them as left-wing, right-wing, or neither, though.
 
Someone would come along with the same ideas and we'd have Baileyism instead of Marxism. History runs like that. It might be five or so years later, but it would happen.
 
Huge blow to social sciences. No historical materialism, the field of sociology might not exist or be totally different.

Socialism as a whole is more utopian and anarchistic, influenced much more by people like Proudhon and Bakunin.
 
II mean, sure Marx was influential, his ideas were ultimately not grounded in reality. Furthermore, anarchism as a concept is just so fundamentally hilarious to me.
...is this going to be a thing where I keep asking and, rather than getting to the obvious point of why you find anarchism "so funny" etc you are going to just keep skirting till I ask more? Because I am not going to play that game.
 
Would radical interpretations of Christianity be more significant?

It's certainly possible and there is actually quite a bit of historical precedent for it, but I think the co-opting of clergy might sour radicals on Christianity in a post-industrial world. If a successful radical Christian political philosophy does develop, I think it would come from a place where religious experimentation is more tolerated-for example, upstate New York.

Georgism I think has potential to get much larger and more influential than IOTL, particularly in the colonies and future post-colonies, where large peasant populations would make questions about the ownership of land very important.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
...is this going to be a thing where I keep asking and, rather than getting to the obvious point of why you find anarchism "so funny" etc you are going to just keep skirting till I ask more? Because I am not going to play that game.

Simple, anarchism as a concept to me contradicts human nature, we're very programmed to want order and structure. And often those who like anarchism, and consider themselves anarchists wouldn't last very long in an actual anarchistic setting, due to their actual political beliefs-be they SJWs or Right Wing nuts-.
 
Simple, anarchism as a concept to me contradicts human nature, we're very programmed to want order and structure. And often those who like anarchism, and consider themselves anarchists wouldn't last very long in an actual anarchistic setting, due to their actual political beliefs-be they SJWs or Right Wing nuts-.
If humanity is genetically predisposed towards nation-states and complex political authority structures, then how come most "native" tribes we see, such as the Tupi and Comanche, only possess consultative leadership?
Same with all avowedly anarchist communes we can see in history. Subcomandante Marcos is not the Chiapan dictator, only the face Chiapas shows to the outside, state-based world. In function, he's just a guy who writes books and gives speeches.
I might agree with you on the issue of anarcho-capitalism being unworkable (capitalism and "free" markets require a state to ensure their functionality), but it's foolish to believe humans are hierarchal and competitive by nature.
A comment from an unnamed friend of mine. Not mine, but useful:
Simply put, humans aren't natural assholes, otherwise, if we were, we would still be stuck clapping rocks together in caves. Human civilization of any stripe is procluded by an excess of absolute individualism, where it's the you against the other, where the other is literally everyone else. The very fact civilization exists is because of the broad cooperative nature of mankind to improve upon our own conditions and work towards something better, whether it be advanced markets, mutual protection, scientific discovery, or even the creation of complex politics as a means of managing very large social networks (of the sort beyond a few hundred to thousand individuals; you can have relationships with up to a a hundred-forty to two-hundred people, and I've heard it said recognize a few thousand faces).
 

VVD0D95

Banned
If humanity is genetically predisposed towards nation-states and complex political authority structures, then how come most "native" tribes we see, such as the Tupi and Comanche, only possess consultative leadership?
Same with all avowedly anarchist communes we can see in history. Subcomandante Marcos is only the face Chiapas shows to the outside, state-based world. In function, he's just a guy who writes books and gives speeches.
I might agree with you on the issue of anarcho-capitalism being unworkable (capitalism and "free" markets require a state to ensure their functionality), but it's foolish to believe humans are hierarchal and competitive by nature.
A comment from an unnamed friend of mine. Not mine, but useful:

Consultative leadership still means you're working within a framework and a structure. Anarchism itself is something that either happens when that framework fails, leading to some to want something to replace the chaos. Pure anarchism will in my view not last very long, and if it does, it will only end up in more death and destruction.
 
Consultative leadership still means you're working within a framework and a structure. Anarchism itself is something that either happens when that framework fails, leading to some to want something to replace the chaos. Pure anarchism will in my view not last very long, and if it does, it will only end up in more death and destruction.
How so?
Anarchism has never lead to death or destruction in a scale even remotely comparable to state societies, be them in formation or already formed into empires with their respective peripheries.
Remember, anarchism does not mean disorder. You can have a society with politics and a formal political method, but no hierarchy. After all, our very concept of "equality" contradicts the notion that our societies are inherently hierarchal. Bakunin and Proudhon, the two of the most known anarchist authors, explicitly told of anarchism as not disorder, but as a new system whereas everyone has an equal voice in how to run it.
Here's a study with primate groups, if nature is what you're asking for.
 
Last edited:

VVD0D95

Banned
How so?
Anarchism has never lead to death or destruction in a scale even remotely comparable to state societies, be them in formation or already formed into empires with their respective peripheries.
Remember, anarchism does not mean disorder. You can have a society with politics and a formal political method, but no hierarchy. After all, our very concept of "equality" contradicts the notion that our societies are inherently hierarchal. Bakunin and Proudhon, the two of the most known anarchist authors, explicitly told of anarchism as not disorder, but as a new system whereas everyone has an equal voice in how to run it.
Here's a study with primate groups, if nature is what you're asking for.
Then why call it anarchism, if there’s no disorder? its Not anarchy it’s a libertarian model of
Living then
 
Then why call it anarchism, if there’s no disorder? its Not anarchy it’s a libertarian model of
Living then
Is that all you have left? Semantics?
Look, if you're just gonna sit there and repeat modern society's pro-hierarchical ideology which has been indoctrinated into you and many others from the beginning, i'm not sure your point is worth debating. Sorry if i came out as a bit rude.
 
Last edited:
Top