No Lousiana Purchase Purchased
- Thread starter The Abyss
- Start date
MacCaulay
Banned
I did a TL about this in pre-1900 called The Lousiana War of 1804. The POD was that the French Army put down Toussaint's rebellion in Haiti and landed in New Orleans, leading Napoleon to try and keep the Territory.
It had the United States, with Andrew Jackson and Zebulon Pike as the main Generals, leading an attack around New Orleans and Mobile Bay, while General George Rogers Clark leads an expedition across the Mississippi at Rock Island to lay a claim to the northern area before the British do.
In that TL, the Americans won after about six months of fighting, destroying the French army that had won in Haiti at the Battle of Mobile Bay.
Then I did about two more weeks of research and realized just how wrong I was. While being able to dig up three historical figures who definitely would have played a part, a failed to realize just how unready the US was. At best, we could have crossed in 1815, when Napoleon was finally going down the tubes. I don't think there would have been a War of 1812. Maybe something like a...Mild Ill-Feelings of 1815. We'd have to browbeat Britain, and I don't think we'd get the border set as far north as we'd hope.
The 49th Parallel idea was put into place partly because of the Louisiana Purchase. Maybe the French government might sell it off later?
It had the United States, with Andrew Jackson and Zebulon Pike as the main Generals, leading an attack around New Orleans and Mobile Bay, while General George Rogers Clark leads an expedition across the Mississippi at Rock Island to lay a claim to the northern area before the British do.
In that TL, the Americans won after about six months of fighting, destroying the French army that had won in Haiti at the Battle of Mobile Bay.
Then I did about two more weeks of research and realized just how wrong I was. While being able to dig up three historical figures who definitely would have played a part, a failed to realize just how unready the US was. At best, we could have crossed in 1815, when Napoleon was finally going down the tubes. I don't think there would have been a War of 1812. Maybe something like a...Mild Ill-Feelings of 1815. We'd have to browbeat Britain, and I don't think we'd get the border set as far north as we'd hope.
The 49th Parallel idea was put into place partly because of the Louisiana Purchase. Maybe the French government might sell it off later?
I'm making a seris of Maps right now where one of the MArshels that opposed the Napoleonic coup ends up suceeding at the event that would get him replaced in OTL. The Napoleonic coup doesn't suceed, and an unstable French Republic stays afloat till the 1930s when its satillites break away lead by the Batavian Republic.
So Louisanna remains Spainsh, even getting a few immgrints from Spain. But in 1819 the US gets in a border dispute with Spain and it later errupts into the war of 1822. (No war of 1812, or purchase). The USA manages to gain everything east and North of the Rio Grande.
So Louisanna remains Spainsh, even getting a few immgrints from Spain. But in 1819 the US gets in a border dispute with Spain and it later errupts into the war of 1822. (No war of 1812, or purchase). The USA manages to gain everything east and North of the Rio Grande.
I might, as I said its a very loose concept at this time. My dates might run too parelle though, as I tend to match up dates with major treaties and revolts.
I'm working with some of these wars causing key revolts. New Spain becomes the Kingdom of Mexico under a Bourbon after a conservative coup. This kingdom loses their grip on Central America including the Yucatan and Chipas in Liberial Republician revolts over the next two decades.MacCaulay
Banned
A couple things that spring to mind: with no War of 1812, Washington, D.C. is still how the original designers intended it to be: a lot more navigable.
Zebulon Pike is still alive, since he would be killed in a powder explosion at York in 1813.
The US claim to everything else east of the Mississippi would become VERY concrete, VERY fast. Possibly leading to Jackson himself fighting in the Black Hawk War in Illinois. Now THAT would be something. Andrew Jackson leading a force partially made up of Illinois and Kentucky volunteers besides his stalwart Tennesseeans; and in that motley assortment: Abraham Lincoln and Jefferson Davis.
Zebulon Pike is still alive, since he would be killed in a powder explosion at York in 1813.
The US claim to everything else east of the Mississippi would become VERY concrete, VERY fast. Possibly leading to Jackson himself fighting in the Black Hawk War in Illinois. Now THAT would be something. Andrew Jackson leading a force partially made up of Illinois and Kentucky volunteers besides his stalwart Tennesseeans; and in that motley assortment: Abraham Lincoln and Jefferson Davis.
Thing is without the War of 1812 we probalbly don't see the Jacksonian Democrats come into the Presidency. Makes me also wonder if the strength of the federalists are weaker or stronger. Without the Louisana Purchase I still think we still see Madison in, however its going to turn over to someone else soon after J.Q. Adams, whom I believe would still get elected considering his high status. Not really sure on the fifth president though...nor the seventh, and thus after the Seventh we are going to see different US poltics. Indian Wars are going to be going on during this time, but I wonder if those go more or less strongly without the Great American Desert to banish them to...
Europe is problely more intresting with a Peace of Amiens-type being in effect, and neither side willing to break it. I figured that the French Revolution stopped Early would be a weak Russian victory, and a strong Dutch victory, but would be bad for the English and the French in the long run.
Spain is even a greater question but I want to mess around with them. I still want Boliviar, whom is alive during this time period, and with a Spainsh lose in the war with the USA I think we'd see a reason for a revolt in which Boliviar could attempt his ideals. I want to give him an endorsed sucessor...
Portugal is much the same question in regards to Brazil and I feel that should be fleshed out in their relation to one anouther.
So I have a first section that I need to devolp in the 1800-1830, placing each section at 30 years and writing 5 sections to get us to 1950...though I'd be more comfortable with 4 sections I suppose..If I plan to finsh one section every six months... hmm, this could be a do-able project...
Europe is problely more intresting with a Peace of Amiens-type being in effect, and neither side willing to break it. I figured that the French Revolution stopped Early would be a weak Russian victory, and a strong Dutch victory, but would be bad for the English and the French in the long run.
Spain is even a greater question
but I want to mess around with them. I still want Boliviar, whom is alive during this time period, and with a Spainsh lose in the war with the USA I think we'd see a reason for a revolt in which Boliviar could attempt his ideals. I want to give him an endorsed sucessor...Portugal is much the same question in regards to Brazil and I feel that should be fleshed out in their relation to one anouther.
So I have a first section that I need to devolp in the 1800-1830, placing each section at 30 years and writing 5 sections to get us to 1950...though I'd be more comfortable with 4 sections I suppose..If I plan to finsh one section every six months... hmm, this could be a do-able project...
Xen
Banned
Maybe the US joins the British Coalition in say 1812 (instead of going to war with them) and takes what it wants from Louisiana, remember at first the US only wanted land east of the Mississippi, including New Orleans. So as a reward for their aid, the Congress of Vienna recognizes US claims on New Orleans. The rest of Louisiana Territory is returned to Spain.
Eventually a Texas like revolution will take place but with its border on the Mississippi, and perhaps with a northern border of the Arkansas River, a southern and western border of the Rio Grande. Perhaps the rest will eventually be turned over to Britain in the 1820s-1830s, after the events of the Anglo-Mexican War.
Hmmm without the war of 1812, the parts of Canada around the Great Lakes might become part of the United States, so we will have the United States being the dominant power East of the Mississippi, with little to no presence in the west, while California, the wild west, the great plains, and Oregon become British. Sort of like a western version Canada. The Canadians will be Cowboys then,
Eventually a Texas like revolution will take place but with its border on the Mississippi, and perhaps with a northern border of the Arkansas River, a southern and western border of the Rio Grande. Perhaps the rest will eventually be turned over to Britain in the 1820s-1830s, after the events of the Anglo-Mexican War.
Hmmm without the war of 1812, the parts of Canada around the Great Lakes might become part of the United States, so we will have the United States being the dominant power East of the Mississippi, with little to no presence in the west, while California, the wild west, the great plains, and Oregon become British. Sort of like a western version Canada. The Canadians will be Cowboys then,
Faeelin
Banned
Unless the US takes it first.
I'm not sure Britain would want it; they were giving back colonies in 1815.
But ya, I could see Britain going for it.
Is a US attack likely? Someone has stated that the US was not ready for war (is this true?) and the US has no interest in being at war with France.
The British resolved from about 1809 that they were going to round up all the French colonies, and steadily did so (there is a good book, by Paul Fregosi, on all the extra-European campaigns in the Napoleonic Wars, I forget the title)
Louisiana would surely be on the list.
You are right that the British may not keep it - which provides the opportunity for some interesting and quite wild PODS, depending on British, French or Spanish ownership.
Also if the British fight the Americans for it in the 1812 war, and keep New Orleans, they might be more inclined to see the benefits of keeping the territory.
But the US would do anything for just the city of New Orleans itself, Britain could have easily got another ally in the Neapoleonic war and some significant trade concessions (if not territorial) for just giving the americans one city.
If the US for some reason never expands beyond the mississipi I would imagine america would continue along the path of being a mercantile nation rather than a becoming a land power. The US would likely continue to upgrade both its navy and merchant marine (which interestingly enough was the worlds second largest during the neapoleonic wars) and would very likely expand into the Caribbean.
If the US for some reason never expands beyond the mississipi I would imagine america would continue along the path of being a mercantile nation rather than a becoming a land power. The US would likely continue to upgrade both its navy and merchant marine (which interestingly enough was the worlds second largest during the neapoleonic wars) and would very likely expand into the Caribbean.
I agree, the whole idea of Manifest Destiny didn't really get off the ground until after the Purchase, if I remember correctly. I do believe that US annexation of New Orleans is inevitable, however. Trade along the Mississippi River would have been too hard without it.