No Belgium

[Friedrich der Große]

After the defeat of Napoleon in 1814/1815, the Great Powers of Europe decided that the Netherlands, Belgium ánd Luxemburg would become 1 country, the United Kingdom of the Netherlands.

In 1830, the Belgians started an uprising, and they got independence.

POD
But what I want to have, is a POD/scenario in which that last doesn’t happen. How could the Belgian Revolution be prevented?

 

[AltoRegnant]

Well, the dutch king Kinda Sucked. His inner circle was highly corrupt and Belgium wasn't getting appropriate amounts of funding, and the monarch was a bit too dictatory, as well as his religious policy pissing off the catholics. So best answer is probably "britain picks someone else when they make the netherlands a kingdom in exchange for some but not all of their empire back"

 

[kasumigenx]

Well, the dutch king Kinda Sucked. His inner circle was highly corrupt and Belgium wasn't getting appropriate amounts of funding, and the monarch was a bit too dictatory, as well as his religious policy pissing off the catholics. So best answer is probably "britain picks someone else when they make the netherlands a kingdom in exchange for some but not all of their empire back"

Give the majority of Wallonia to France.

 

[pompejus]

Give the majority of Wallonia to France.

I always like that idea and think it would have been better for the Netherlands, Flanders, France, the Congo and possibly all of Europe (making France and Germant possibly more balanced). The problem though is: how?

It basicly can't happen at Vienna. The idea at Vienna was to reduce France to its pre revolutionary borders, which obviously exclude all of Wallonia. For France to keep Wallonia you need a very different Vienna congress than OTL. Also there is the problem that people in the early 19th century (and before) did not realy care about linguistic borders. That is a later idea. Just look at the regions that did end up with France that were not speaking French (or a French related dialect), like the Alsace or French Flandres/Dunkirk. This was even the case at the time of the Belgian revolt. Belgium and the Netherlands were split roughly around the old borders between the Austrian and republican Netherlands. Noone cared about the linguistic situation. The same is true for the Talleyrand partion plan. It completely ignores the linguistic situation too. Simply put, noone cared about that in those days.

If you truly want to split Flanders and Wallonia, the most likely scenario is a Netherlands that manages to defeat the Belgian revolt, causing Belgian to remain part of the Netherlands and another revolt at a later point in time, in which the Flemish side with the Dutch, or something like that. That said, I think with the 1848 constitutional reform in the Netherlands, most of the Belgian grievences would have been dealt with.

 

[Aghasverov]

(actually "Talleyrand Plan", as it says on the map, is a bit of a misnomer... turns out he wasn't too crazy about the idea himself...)

Flahaut partition plan for Belgium - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[GameBawesome]

One thing for sure, this definitely has the butterfly affect with Scramble for Africa, specifically the Congo.

Also, correct me if I’m wrong, would this butterfly the marriage of Victoria, since Prince Albert studied in Belgium, it was King Leopold who pushed it

 

[pompejus]

(actually "Talleyrand Plan", as it says on the map, is a bit of a misnomer... turns out he wasn't too crazy about the idea himself...)

Flahaut partition plan for Belgium - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

View attachment 677612

Fascinating, Talleyrand has roughly the same objections I have to this plan.

Maybe I should become a world renowned diplomat.

 

[Friedrich der Große]

I always like that idea and think it would have been better for the Netherlands, Flanders, France, the Congo and possibly all of Europe (making France and Germant possibly more balanced). The problem though is: how?

It basicly can't happen at Vienna. The idea at Vienna was to reduce France to its pre revolutionary borders, which obviously exclude all of Wallonia. For France to keep Wallonia you need a very different Vienna congress than OTL. Also there is the problem that people in the early 19th century (and before) did not realy care about linguistic borders. That is a later idea. Just look at the regions that did end up with France that were not speaking French (or a French related dialect), like the Alsace or French Flandres/Dunkirk. This was even the case at the time of the Belgian revolt. Belgium and the Netherlands were split roughly around the old borders between the Austrian and republican Netherlands. Noone cared about the linguistic situation. The same is true for the Talleyrand partion plan. It completely ignores the linguistic situation too. Simply put, noone cared about that in those days.

If you truly want to split Flanders and Wallonia, the most likely scenario is a Netherlands that manages to defeat the Belgian revolt, causing Belgian to remain part of the Netherlands and another revolt at a later point in time, in which the Flemish side with the Dutch, or something like that. That said, I think with the 1848 constitutional reform in the Netherlands, most of the Belgian grievences would have been dealt with.

Hmmm, or maybe give Flanders to the Netherlands after the war of Spanish Succession and Wallonia to Austria? Or is that too early and unrealistic?

Or: let the Dutch Ten Days Campaign be more succesfull, so the Netherlands receives Flanders and France Wallonia-Luxembourg or split Wallonia-Luxembourg between France and Prussia I guess? Although this will be interesting for the Franco-Prussian rivalry

 

[Help]

Why would the other powers want to enlarge France though? Weren't they terrified of it?

 

[AsukaEMP]

Hmmm, or maybe give Flanders to the Netherlands after the war of Spanish Succession and Wallonia to Austria? Or is that too early and unrealistic?

Or: let the Dutch Ten Days Campaign be more succesfull, so the Netherlands receives Flanders and France Wallonia-Luxembourg or split Wallonia-Luxembourg between France and Prussia I guess? Although this will be interesting for the Franco-Prussian rivalry

1. The Netherlands wanted to avoid a border with France, they wouldn't take Flanders even if you offered it to them.
2. I don't think I need to explain that the chances of any real Dutch successes against the French army are non-existent.
3. All the great powers wanted to avoid extending the French border with Prussia.

 

[Orcot]

could a new bufferstate of saarlorlux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SaarLorLux have happenend.

Generaly it's a region that has a similar industry, production of steel whilst owning a lot of coal?

 

[Friedrich der Große]

1. The Netherlands wanted to avoid a border with France, they wouldn't take Flanders even if you offered it to them.
2. I don't think I need to explain that the chances of any real Dutch successes against the French army are non-existent.
3. All the great powers wanted to avoid extending the French border with Prussia.

1. That is why I suggest Austria gets Wallonia
2. I agree, but you can do a POD in which Russia/Austria/Prussia support The Netherlands, so France doesn’t intervene
3. I agree

 

[Friedrich der Große]

could a new bufferstate of saarlorlux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SaarLorLux have happenend.

Generaly it's a region that has a similar industry, production of steel whilst owning a lot of coal?

That would be very interesting

 

[Friedrich der Große]

So, there is no simple way to keep the UKN under one flag?

 

[AsukaEMP]

1. That is why I suggest Austria gets Wallonia

Flanders still very much shares and shared a border with France

 

[Friedrich der Große]

View attachment 677644
Flanders still very much shares and shared a border with France

Yeah, excuse me 😬, you’re right

 

[Parma]

It simply can prevented.
First the Belgium revolution was NOT a revolution and NOT an uprising.
It was nothing more than a conspiracy of French agitators who lived in Belgium, fled form France, who were inspired by the French July revolution.

Can this be prevented.
Yes, King William ! should not anger the Chatolic Clergy by nationalising the schools for Priest. Thsi will prevent the coalition of Chatholic clergy and the Liberals.
This will isolate the French agitators.

If it riots will occure as OTL and not unlikly, it can be stopped easily, when Prince Frederik entered Brussels at 23 September 1830 with an army of 12000 troops.
In OTL this army had to retreat in to the Royla Park or the Warande due to heavy fire from houses and building.
Prince Frederik second in command ( a veteran of the Napolenontic wars, a general which name I forgot) advised to use artilery and bomb the lower city and Marrolles, in order to clear the way to the crucial city gates.
Prince frederick refused, fearing the civilian casulties and decided to retreat the army out of the city during the night. This fatal desicion inspired the rioters and proved the civil guard of Brussles patricians that they can not count on the King and have to take maters in their own hand.

In short, there is no need to split the former Austrian Netherlands like the Taylerant plan or other fancy ful division plans.
Simple this it made up due to, at that time, non exsisting language issues or in case of Taylerant greater France dreams. The language issue is created after Belgian independence, by ruling out the Dutch language as offical language and even oppressing it.

 

[Friedrich der Große]

It simply can prevented.

First the Belgium revolution was NOT a revolution and NOT an uprising.
It was nothing more than a conspiracy of French agitators who lived in Belgium, fled form France, who were inspired by the French July revolution.

Can this be prevented.
Yes, King William ! should not anger the Chatolic Clergy by nationalising the schools for Priest. Thsi will prevent the coalition of Chatholic clergy and the Liberals.
This will isolate the French agitators.

If it riots will occure as OTL and not unlikly, it can be stopped easily, when Prince Frederik entered Brussels at 23 September 1830 with an army of 12000 troops.
In OTL this army had to retreat in to the Royla Park or the Warande due to heavy fire from houses and building.
Prince Frederik second in command ( a veteran of the Napolenontic wars, a general which name I forgot) advised to use artilery and bomb the lower city and Marrolles, in order to clear the way to the crucial city gates.
Prince frederick refused, fearing the civilian casulties and decided to retreat the army out of the city during the night. This fatal desicion inspired the rioters and proved the civil guard of Brussles patricians that they can not count on the King and have to take maters in their own hand.

In short, there is no need to split the former Austrian Netherlands like the Taylerant plan or other fancy ful division plans.
Simple this it made up due to, at that time, non exsisting language issues or in case of Taylerant greater France dreams. The language issue is created after Belgian independence, by ruling out the Dutch language as offical language and even oppressing it.

Great!

 

[Nivek]

Prussia keep Belgium, the Netherlands keep Frisia and the Saxons are given Rhineland to keep an eye of the french with Prussia.

 

[Aghasverov]

Prussia keep Belgium, the Netherlands keep Frisia and the Saxons are given Rhineland to keep an eye of the french with Prussia.

I doubt if the Prussians would approve of giving one iota of land to Nap's last remaining loyal ally, even as late as 15 years after the CoV, considering they had made a play at absorbing all of Saxony then...