New Deal Coalition Retained Pt II: World on Fire

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Usili

AJustMonster said:
What about the whole Pieper issue? People have seemingly given reasons for him his command being incredibly unlikely, both in his association with different massacres and his limited tactical experience.
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There's also the fact of him having originally been sentenced to death from the Malmedy massacre trial before it going to a twelve year sentence.

And y'know, there's also another thing I was thinking about. In wondering explicitly why, you have Hans-Ulrich Rudel involved. This is a figure who helped to bring Nazis into Latin America (which included Josef Mengele, the noted war criminal and person in charge of human experimentation in Auschwitz) along with having received the highest award available in Nazi Germany, only able to be awarded by Hitler himself. It raises some very interesting questions as to why specifically you have two Nazi war criminals, Joachim Peiper and Hans-Ulrich Rudel being involved here. You have two specific Nazi war criminals being involved here who apparently 'renounced' their history when they did anything but, having consistently defended it (Peiper calling the Nuremberg trials as propaganda and Rudel remaining involved as the leader of numerous Neo-Nazi parties and having helped Mengele escape into Latin America) throughout their history. Would be really interesting to know as to why The Congressman decided on those two specific Nazis to have in charge.
 

AJustMonster

Admiral Halsey said:
As stated before it's the German's lack of officers with actual military experience. Also when facing a war for national survival you're going to take whatever you can. As I stated before if the choice is between having a Nazi lead your army because he's the only one with actual battle experience or the destruction of your nation you're gonna hold your nose over the smell until the war is over.
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But their only choice isn't a Nazi, there's a whole new generation of military officers from which to choose to lead an army. You especially don't choose the old war criminal when his record of combat was never quite so impressive in the first place, nor when his combat experience was forty to fifty years ago. With that amount of time it's almost the same as the U.S. entering World War One and calling out any surviving Civil War generals because that was the last major conflict in which they were involved. Also, for a nation that has been described to be taking into account their past crimes even further than was done OTL, I think it'd be more reasonable to think they'd take the punch rather than the 'repentant' war criminal who never faced any justice for his crimes. Besides that, NATO would never have allowed him into power, knowing his history. On the Manchurian front in this WWIII, the Japanese immediately suspended a general of theirs and recommended he commit suicide to avoid the publicity of a trial after he massacred prisoners of war because they were afraid of their allies' and the international community's reactions.

Just yesterday, or decades past, an individual can't wash that type of blood off their hands.
 

Prince Daemon Targaryen

Usili said:
There's also the fact of him having originally been sentenced to death from the Malmedy massacre trial before it going to a twelve year sentence.

And y'know, there's also another thing I was thinking about. In wondering explicitly why, you have Hans-Ulrich Rudel involved. This is a figure who helped to bring Nazis into Latin America (which included Josef Mengele, the noted war criminal and person in charge of human experimentation in Auschwitz) along with having received the highest award available in Nazi Germany, only able to be awarded by Hitler himself. It raises some very interesting questions as to why specifically you have two Nazi war criminals, Joachim Peiper and Hans-Ulrich Rudel being involved here. You have two specific Nazi war criminals being involved here who apparently 'renounced' their history when they did anything but, having consistently defended it (Peiper calling the Nuremberg trials as propaganda and Rudel remaining involved as the leader of numerous Neo-Nazi parties and having helped Mengele escape into Latin America) throughout their history. Would be really interesting to know as to why The Congressman decided on those two specific Nazis to have in charge.
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Your thinly veiled charges that I'm a Nazi are not appreciated
 

Prince Daemon Targaryen

It it will stop the bellyaching, I will retcon both Peiper and Rudel to two original characters. Information on major German military figures of the proper age to fit in the created roles is very limited
 

Prince Daemon Targaryen

Retcon alert: Regarding the wikibox and the text, I have changed Jochen Peiper and Hans-Ulrich Rudel to the original ITTL characters of Friedrich Storch (A former junior officer in the Waffen-SS for the end of the war and participated in no atrocities; renounced his affiliation and a strong supporter of Freyism) and Siegfried Baum (Luftwaffe pilot and former Nazi party member; renounced his affiliation and a strong supporter of Freyism) respectively; if you see Peiper or Rudel in any wikibox, please substitute their names for Storch and Baum; I will fix the wikiboxes in the finished title
 

Usili

The Congressman said:
Your thinly veiled charges that I'm a Nazi are not appreciated
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Nowhere in my post did I say that or try to 'thinly veil' it at all, and was purely criticizing your writing choices of putting two explicit Nazis, both of whom have consistently defended themselves as such prior to your PoD and which would not change such actions, statements, and defense that they would have done.
 

Prince Daemon Targaryen

The retcon has been fully completed. I will have the wikiboxes fixed when I put the WWIII posts in the Finished TL page.

Usili said:
Nowhere in my post did I say that or try to 'thinly veil' it at all, and was purely criticizing your writing choices of putting two explicit Nazis, both of whom have consistently defended themselves as such prior to your PoD and which would not change such actions, statements, and defense that they would have done.
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It's been officially retconned as of now, so your point is invalid.
 

Usili

The Congressman said:
It's been officially retconned as of now, so your point is invalid.
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... So my point is invalid by keeping a member of the SS in charge? Like honestly, at least you're being accurate with how Gerhard Frey was in terms of his history as being a Neo-Nazi and putting former members of the Nazi Party in charge compared to Mandela at least.
 

Prince Daemon Targaryen

Usili said:
... So my point is invalid by keeping a member of the SS in charge? Like honestly, at least you're being accurate with how Gerhard Frey was in terms of his history as being a Neo-Nazi and putting former members of the Nazi Party in charge compared to Mandela at least.
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the whole point of Frey's movement and Frey's party is that the sins of past affiliation (not past conduct), can be atoned for and extinguished through dedicating one's life and public policy. Therefore the entire German people could be proud of their culture and national identity just like a former Nazi who was in the party but didn't participate in the actual atrocities could be proud of himself or herself once more and atone for the past sins. Instead of destroying yourself from guilt, use the guilt to create positive change: that's the essence of German Freyism.

The way you make it out, it's as if the post-retcon Germany is putting former concentration camp guards or Party elders in charge, which is laughable as it is insulting. Have you even read the TL, the parts where I describe how the Freyists banished the neo-Nazis away from the NDP? I've never seen you post once prior to today.
 

CalBear

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Okay.

Time to clear the deck here...

If ANYONE has what they believe is evidence that anyone in this thread is supporting Nazism, report it. Don't imply in posts, don't passive aggressive it, report it and the Mods will look at it. Keep it out of the discussion going forward.

Feel free to question why, within the ATL of the thread why individual XXXX is being used, considering that they were a poor dresser with a crooked hair part (or any other issue), but stop the accusations.

I am not going to read an 83 page thread to try to parse the motivations of every poster, just not going to happen None of the other Mods have that sort of time to spend either Argue facts/figures/motivations of the Dramatis persona to your heart's content.

Don't attack each other.

Play the Ball
 

Napoleon IV

The portrayal of Gerhard Frey here is extremely inaccurate. As proof, let's look at some of the people and groups Frey associated with IOTL:

Noted Holocaust deniers David Irving, Gerard Menuhin, and Arthur Butz (one of Frey's newspapers even serialized Butz's book "The Hoax of the 20th Century", while Meuhin had a regular column in the Frey's "Nazional Zeitung" newspaper)

The National Democratic Party of Germany (one of the largest Neo-Nazi parties in Europe)

The Neo-Nazi terrorist group Wehrsportgruppe Hoffmann (who Frey used as bodyguards during some of his events)

The Republicans (another German political party that has in the past been classified as "right-wing extremist" by the German government)

Hilfskorp Arabien, which was formed by right-wing extremists to fight Israelis in the Middle East

Vladimir Zhirinovsky, who has demanded that Jews be segregated on reservations and blames them for WWII.

Also there's the stuff Frey's newspapers published, such as this gem from the Nazional Zeitung:

"Anyone who today dares to contradict the thesis of German sole responsibility for the outbreak of the Second World War and points out the respective portion of blame of the victorious powers has to muster great courage. Even 70 years after the outbreak of the horrific struggle between nations, no sovereignty in dealing with the truth is recognizable in the Federal Republic of Germany, but rather what US President Truman already knew continues to be valid: “History is written by the victors."

In short: Gerhard Frey was an actual Nazi. And I have a serious problem with this TL just ignoring his IOTL history and passing him off as an anti-totalitarian patriot. Like with Mandela and apartheid it's both completely out of character for Frey, and also is offensive. You can have a Freyist-style ideology in your TL, but for the love of God don't use Gerhard Frey. I do want to say however that I am not accusing The Congressman of supporting Nazism or any other activity which breaks the rules. I suspect he picked a figure from the German right-wing without really looking at their history.
 
Alpha-King98760

Alpha-King98760

You know, I’m starting to seriously question whether or not I should just drop this TL all together. Seems rather pointless to read it now if every time there’s an update there’s five or more complaints about the update.

You know what? Screw it I’m out of here, I’m sick and tired of these constant complaints.
 

AJustMonster

Alpha-King98760 said:
You know what? Screw it I’m out of here, I’m sick and tired of these constant complaints.
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If you'd already decided on leaving the thread before you'd finished your post, why would you have put it up at all? At that point all it is, is unnecessarily inflammatory, and gives the wrong idea too that criticism will scare others away from the work rather than give it a chance to be improved upon.

And besides that, the criticisms other people have with a timeline you enjoy is no reason to leave. The nice thing about threads like this is you don't have to read through other people's complaints, and you don't have to debate with them if you disagree. You can just read whenever @The Congressman posts an update, pose any questions if there is a need, and ignore everything else. The only thing you do by outright abandoning it hurt an author who's work you support.
 
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Napoleon IV

Redcoat said:
Oh he's done much worse. Also he's not that much of an antisemite seeing his dad's part Jewish
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Zhirinovsky on his heritage:

"Why should I reject Russian blood, Russian culture, Russian land, and fall in love with the Jewish people only because of that single drop of blood that my father left in my mother's body?"

So Zhirinovsky at least at one point did not consider himself Jewish (he's gone back and forth on the issue since then). In any case, regardless of his heritage Zhirinovsky is still a massive anti-Semite. In addition to the stuff I listed above Zhirinovsky also proposed that he and American presidential candidate Pat Buchanan work together to deport their countries Jewish populations. He's also said that Jews sell healthy children to the West (which is a form of blood libel), has endorsed the myth of Jewish Bolshevism, and commented that the Jews run the banks and the media.
 
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