NeoPagan Revival instead of Protestant Reformation

Status
Not open for further replies.

DocBen

Banned
The Renaissance was a revival of pagan Roman culture, including art and architecture. However the Catholic church prematurely cut the Renaissance short, not allowing the neopagan culture to truly bloom.
I am thinking, instead of having a Protestant Reformation as an expression of built up discontent against the Catholic church, how can we have a NeoPagan Revival. As an extension of the Renaissance, with not only the aesthetic parts (art and architecture), but also the old pagan religious beliefs making a comeback. I would like to see a return of ancient Green and Roman paganism, and also Slavic, Celtic, and Nordic paganism. The end result would be the defeat of the Catholic church in Europe, and no Protestants either. The Renaissance continues for much longer, also inspiring Scandinavia and Russia to have their own Renaissances based on their own pagan culture.
What PODs would be needed for that?
 
The causes of the reformation didn't lend themselves to a neopagan revival, unlike post enlightenment, people didn't question the idea of a single all poweful Abrahamitic god yet, merely the currupt practices of his self-proclaimed representatives on earth. There was of course a certain fashion among the high and mighty to compare themselves to ancient demigods like Hercules (that name, or rather its' Romance variations Hercule, Ercole became all the rage in 15th and 16th century Europe) or even full on deities like Apollo, but that reflected more a resumption of similar practices by ancient Roman Emperors, through which the ruler in question wanted to equal himself to those, than a real reverance for the deities in question. This is very obvious in the way, in which statues of pagan deities, whether ancient originals or modern renaissance copies, were used, as purely decorative objects d'art without any deeper religious meaning.
 
Celtic, Norse, and Slavic is out. Even if you had a populace willing to re-adopt polytheism, there are few or none written sources on actual pagan practices (recall that all we know about the ancient Druids comes from the pen of Julius Caesar, and that the Norse Eddas were written by Christians, with all the associated edits). Modern neopaganism is basically guess-work.

That leaves the Greek/Roman pantheon, where at least we have written sources to deal with. I could imagine a few eccentrics taking sixteenth century passion for the classics a bit far, via embracing Neoplatonism (itself not utterly alien to Christianity), but that is really it. Neoplatonism always was a philosophy for intellectuals, not the masses.
 
Last edited:
By the 16th century ... In some areas paganism had been dead for milena also the church funded the Renaissance
OTOH it was reformation and counter-rrformation that eventually killed last pockets of paganism in Europe ( 16th centurt Prussia and Samogitia were still largely pagan, in Prussia Grand Masters of Teutonic order even allowed pagan priests to perform their rituals openly).
 

DocBen

Banned
That leaves the Greek/Roman pantheon, where at least we have written sources to deal with. I could imagine a few eccentrics taking sixteenth century passion for the classics a bit far, via embracing Neoplatonism (itself not utterly alien to Christianity), but that is really it. Neoplatonism always was a philosophy for intellectuals, not the masses.
What about embracing the ancient pagan practices of worshipping the Greek/Roman gods, sacrificing animals, performing rituals etc? Perhaps they could rebuild the ancient pagan temples and/or build new ones based on Renaissance architecture?
 
However the Catholic church prematurely cut the Renaissance short, n
Uh...how?

Anyhoo, it gets stamped out by the Holy Roman Emperor and his princes are 100% behind him. The whole point of going Protestant was to get a CHRISTIAN church controlled by the local lord rather than the pope. And it HAS to be Christian.

Why? Two reasons. Because the princes or kings who wanted that WERE Christian, and they weren’t kidding about it (for the most part). Second, and the absolute dealbreaker, the PEASANTS were Christian. And much as we think of the peasants as an oppressed class (and they were) they also were what MADE the lord what he was. If he gets them really angry then that’s the ballgame. And going pagan would get them really, really angry. Angry enough that when the Emperor comes through looking to decorate a pole with his head those peasants (and knights) he needs to fight back are going to be busy switching sides. And then his head gets put on a pole. Going to a slightly different church service is nowhere CLOSE to this.
 
Actually 16th century European pagan priests performing old rituals in public is OTL, as I've mentioned few times it was how 16th century Prussia looked like, the last stronghold of Indo-european religion in Europe, from my old post:

Over time Baltic Prussians became more loyal citizens of TO state than German urban population of large towns, like Danzig or Thorn, who were more and more unhappy about rising taxes and finally rebelled against TO in 1454. Baltic Prussians were even allowed to keep their religion even as late as during 1520s (at the time of the lasts wars between Poland and Teutonic Order, in 1520 Prussian Pagan priest Waltin Supplit asked Grand Master for permission for performance of pagan rituals in Sambia, Grand Master agreed. Thousands of Prussians gathered on the Baltic coast and begged their gods to save Prussia from invasion of Danzig fleet, allied with Poland. They sacrificed black bull to the gods, and seemingly that worked, because Danzig fleet retreated. That is how Teutonic Crusader States fullfilled their mission ;)
 
Celtic, Norse, and Slavic paganism was basically unknown in Renaissance Europe among the learned classes, even in their homelands. It only came back into prominence in the age of nationalism. The only paganism that would ever stand remotely a chance is Greco-Roman paganism and whoever announced they converted to it would be regarded as insane on the level of premodern Christians who converted to Judaism (who typically ended up burned at the stake or otherwise executed).
 
The Renaissance was a revival of pagan Roman culture, including art and architecture.
It wasn't really a revival of pagan roman culture. The Renaissance is a period where Europe rediscovered a lot of forgotten antique text sure, but the way these texts were read and interpreted was very much in-line with the time-period they were rediscovered. So while there was a growing interest for greco-roman mythology for example, most of the people who studied it didn't believe in the myths and were more interested in the way they were told, sometimes even reinterpreting or rewriting them to better fit christian eyes and virtues.

Same with art and architecture. Buildings were build with a style that tried to mimic antiquity, but they still had little in common with the ones built during antiquity. As for art, while it certainly saw a growing use of greco-roman motifs, it still had nothing in common with antique art and still had adapted along the lines brought by the previous periods of time.
However the Catholic church prematurely cut the Renaissance short, not allowing the neopagan culture to truly bloom.
How exactly can you say the Catholic Church prematurely cut the Renaissance short?

Many ecclesiastical princes were as much interested by the revival of the classics and the growing interest of antiquity as the other parts of Europe. Which isn't a surprise since many of the most powerful ecclesiastical princes came from princely families, so naturally shared the growing interests of those.

Even the Papacy wasn't immune to the move. Rome was the seat of the Pope and he did everything to embellish it according to the fashion of its time. St. Peter's cathedrals is very much a product of the Renaissance for example: it obviously lack greco-roman motifs but it's definitely a Renaissance buildling. It's also forgetting the amount of work done on the Sistine chapel during the time-period which was done by the top artists of their time...

In fact, the fact the Church became such a proeminent promoter of the Renaissance and thus showed and used its wealth so much for it probably played a part in the rise of the Reformation. Denouncing clerical wealth and criticizing the catholic clergy's mores were all the rage during the Reformation after all.

Finally, the interest in antiquity certainly didn't stop with the Renaissance. You basically had to wait the XIXth Century for the interest in antiquity to die down, precisely at the same time authors started to dive more serisously into the middle ages and rediscover it. And even then, antiquity still interested many.
I am thinking, instead of having a Protestant Reformation as an expression of built up discontent against the Catholic church, how can we have a NeoPagan Revival. As an extension of the Renaissance, with not only the aesthetic parts (art and architecture), but also the old pagan religious beliefs making a comeback. I would like to see a return of ancient Green and Roman paganism, and also Slavic, Celtic, and Nordic paganism.
It seems basically impossible and very much like a stretch. By the late 15th century (the time during which the Renaissance begins), Europe was pretty much completely converted to Christiannity. Paganism was pretty much dead and if there were pagans left, they were probably way too small in number to have an influence.

The church was also very much in control of culture, and theology at the time was among the highest and most respected disciplines of the time. So most of Europe's life revolved around the christian religion.

You have more chance to see Europe turning to Islam, and that's mostly because of the Turkic expansion in the Balkans.

The only place were a pagan revival might be possible could be Lithuania as it converted very late to Christiannity. And even then I think Lithuanian paganism died out pretty quickly once Lithuania converted... Not to mention that at the time of the Renaissance, Lithuania was in personnal union with Poland. And even taking that into account, Lithuania was more of a backwater compared to England, France, the HRE or the italian states.
The end result would be the defeat of the Catholic church in Europe, and no Protestants either.
Even admitting that a neo-pagan revival would be plausible, a "defeat" of the Catholic church seems very unlikely. Even at the height of the Reformation, the time when a good deal of prince and states turned away from Catholicism for one of the protestant denominations, the Church still enjoyed a considerable amount of support. It also underwent a Counter-Reform movement that allowed it to face the Reform: the end result was that Europe was mostly divided along the lines of a Protestant North and a Catholic South. That's not really what I call a defeat: a certain loss of influence sure, but at the same time the countries that stayed Catholic were even more aligned with the Church than they used to (even if there were still the usual oppositions between Temporal and Spiritual power).

A neo-pagan revival would most likely face the same issues the reformation did. You'd have princes who'd convert to the neo-pagan ways and other who'd stay adamantly true to Chritsian doctrines, and the Church would also undergo a movement to better fight the neo-pagans.

This would also not necessarilly prevent the advent of Protestantism. It could disminish its rise and influence, but at the same time a neo-pagan revival would also most likely increase the grievances against the catholic clergy, with the rise of neo-pagans cited as proof of their weakness and corruption.
The Renaissance continues for much longer, also inspiring Scandinavia and Russia to have their own Renaissances based on their own pagan culture.
What makes you think Scandinavia and Russia didn't undergo a Renaissance of their own?

I admit I know the history of those two regions rather poorly. However, Scandinavia had strong ties to Northern Europe, especially England, Germany and the Netherlands, countries which all were affected by the Renaissance. So it's likely the Renaissance came into Scandinavia through those contacts. Not to mention that at the time of the Reformation, Denmark and Sweden were major Protestant powers and played a huge part in the events. And if you look at Danish and Swedish art of the time, you certainly see the traces and impact of the Renaissance.

Russia was more distant and kind of a different world, but saying the Renaissance played no part in Russia seems strange for me.
What PODs would be needed for that?
As far as I can tell, the scenario seems so unlikely we border ASB territory. You need the Renaissance to not just be a growing interest in antiquity but to also have a religious impact, a questionning of chrsitiannity's dominance in Europe and inspire a revival of pagan religions. With the cars we're dealt with... I don't see a POD that makes this works outside of a Fantasy scenario. Or going back long before the Renaissance, which kinda defeats the purpose.
 
The only place were a pagan revival might be possible could be Lithuania as it converted very late to Christiannity. And even then I think Lithuanian paganism died out pretty quickly once Lithuania converted...

That actually is not true-Baltic religion was still thriving when reformation started, 16th century bishop of Samogitia complained, that hardly anyone in his diocese ever confessed or received Holy Communion.

@Augenis mentioned, that there were myths in Lithuania about magical pistols created by god Perkunas.

But, as you have said, Lithuania was periphery and lacked influence to seriously affect rest of Europe.
 
That actually is not true-Baltic religion was still thriving when reformation started, 16th century bishop of Samogitia complained, that hardly anyone in his diocese ever confessed or received Holy Communion.

@Augenis mentioned, that there were myths in Lithuania about magical pistols created by god Perkunas.

But, as you have said, Lithuania was periphery and lacked influence to seriously affect rest of Europe.
In addition while Lithuanian paganism was indeed present it was, at that point, limited solely to the peasant population. There were no nobles or even local leaders who followed the pagan faith and could lead a some sort of revival, and the former religious structure (what was there of it, at least) had already been destroyed. There was no more pagan priesthood who could preach the faith, much less create a neo-pagan revival.
 
In addition while Lithuanian paganism was indeed present it was, at that point, limited solely to the peasant population. There were no nobles or even local leaders who followed the pagan faith and could lead a some sort of revival, and the former religious structure (what was there of it, at least) had already been destroyed. There was no more pagan priesthood who could preach the faith, much less create a neo-pagan revival.
Meanwhile pagan priesthood was still tolerated in Prussia until 1520s, so despite earlier start of official Christianization Baltic paganism survived there in better shape.
 
Speaking of individual eccentrics, it's worth considering that OTL pagan revivalists had to wait until this guy, in the late eighteenth century:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Taylor_(neoplatonist)

So you're talking Enlightenment era, at a time when an individual (non-Catholic) kook was seen as no threat to the religious Establishment. Because it's the Enlightenment, polite society merely laughs at him, rather than executing him.
 
IOTL the Black Death did largely spare Poland and the Baltics. What if ITTL, the plague spares only those areas, where Baltic religions are still practised, evoking the impression, that only the veneration of ancient gods can save you from it. This sparks a renewed interest in whatever practices survived from the pagan era, with Scandinavian and the quite similar Germanic paganism taking their inspiration from the Norse Eddas, the Meditarranean from ancient Roman and Greek mythology as well as surving practices like the Bona Dea veneration, which IOTL was only fully stamped out during the 16th century witch trials. And when analysing the fall of the Roman Empire, renaissance authors ITTL put much more emphasis on the abandonment of the old gods as the main reason for its' decline than IOTL. This still wouldn't replace the reformation with a pagan revival, merely add it as another factor during a time of religious upheaval.
 
Last edited:

DocBen

Banned
What about British/Irish/Celtic paganism or Wicca? For example, we know that in the 1690s there were Salem Witch trials in the British North American colonies. Women who practiced the old pagan religion were stoned to death by the Puritans. It follows that at least some pagans were left in the British Isles by that time, and immigrated to North America. Also there were witch trials in Britain itself during that time.
 
What about British/Irish/Celtic paganism or Wicca? For example, we know that in the 1690s there were Salem Witch trials in the British North American colonies. Women who practiced the old pagan religion were stoned to death by the Puritans. It follows that at least some pagans were left in the British Isles by that time, and immigrated to North America. Also there were witch trials in Britain itself during that time.

That is mostly pop-culture history not really founded on fact though. Most of those poor women that got burned as witches were practicing Christians. Youd more likely to get put to death for adultery and sodomy during the peak of the witch hunting hysteria. aA other posters have said paganism was dead and buried in Western and Central Europe.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top