Nazis see themselves as the defenders of God

[Anime Ninja]

What if during the rise of Hitler, part of the message was "The Party and The Church". You have Hitler seeing himself as new Holy Roman Emperor.

When the war comes you have the Nazis fighting "In the name of God" They have that as a central theme of their propaganda. They make the Jews out to be the ones that have been forsaken by God.

How would that change the way people would see the Nazis during the 30s and the 40s if they went that route?

As well post war, POWs would remember, that in the camps, the Nazis would be saying that they were the ones chosen by God and the Allies were the ones trying to over throw God's choice. As well they could use in their propaganda, after they attacked the USSR that they were trying to restore the church to the Soviet people that were being denied that.

Would there be a larger separation between the church and state? How would this been seen in other parts of the world?

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Not really addressing the question directly, but the Nazis (or at least the Wehrmacht) did use "Gott mitt uns", which is ... ironic.

 

[iori]

Well you have the issue that Hitler very much disliked the Church and was very much into Mysticism and the occult..

 

[Kongzilla]

I think if the vatican and Italy as a whole might be more into the war effort since Italy is a very religious nation. The germans may draw a lot more recruits for the Waffen-SS overseas divisions as they could promote that god fearing catholics are doint his work.

 

[Noravea]

Have Hitler make the Pope declare a crusade against Bolshevism?

 

[Mike Stearns]

They make the Jews out to be the ones that have been forsaken by God.

I would be curious to see how the Nazis would respond to the Jews' inevitable "We're the Chosen People and you're not" counter argument.

 

[RGB]

I would be curious to see how the Nazis would respond to the Jews' inevitable "We're the Chosen People and you're not" counter argument.

The history of Christian rhetoric around European anti-Semitism is long and infamous. I'm sure there'd be no challenge at all in that sense.

 

[Vingilótë]

I would be curious to see how the Nazis would respond to the Jews' inevitable "We're the Chosen People and you're not" counter argument.

They never had any problems trying to cut out the Old Testament and other sections of the Bible overly positive about Jews OTL.

 

[iori]

I think if the vatican and Italy as a whole might be more into the war effort since Italy is a very religious nation. The germans may draw a lot more recruits for the Waffen-SS overseas divisions as they could promote that god fearing catholics are doint his work.

Italy is religious in the same way Mexico is, a large percent of the population do believe in Christianity and are atleast nominally Catholic, but a good many majority distrust the Church itself.

 

[Kongzilla]

That could draw in more recruits for the SS, distrust the church that's ok we are gods true warriors

 

[BBadolato]

Wouldn't you have to Italian Fascism as we know more inclusive of religion doctrine wise, since the Nazi's did copy Italian Fascism. Or are you looking for the Nazi's to be more like the Iron Guard Legionaries of Romania.

 

[Cook]

What if during the rise of Hitler, part of the message was "The Party and The Church".

Firstly, this would mean a very different Nazi ideology; Hitler believed, and stated on numerous occasions that ‘morality’ was a Jewish idea designed to hold back the Germanic strength of will.

Secondly, which Church - Catholic or Lutheran? An early Bavarian Nazi party that was a strong supporter of the church would presumably be a strong supporter of the Catholic church, and wouldn’t sell well in Prussia and the other north German provinces. If you have an absolutist dogma such as Nazi-ism, you can’t go around saying ‘it’s all good’.

And thirdly, the Pope during the rise of Hitler was Pius XI, not a friend of dictators or Anti-semitism:

“I say to you it is impossible for a Christian to take part in anti-Semitism. It is inadmissible. Through Christ and in Christ we are the spiritual progeny of Abraham. Spiritually, we [Christians] are all Semites.”

 

[Elfwine]

Why would there be more recruits for the SS?

I mean, the Nazis can claim to be defenders of the One True Faith all they like, but will people outside Germany believe that?

Not to mention what Cook said.

 

[Tongera]

Why would there be more recruits for the SS?

I mean, the Nazis can claim to be defenders of the One True Faith all they like, but will people outside Germany believe that?

They wouldn't believe it, as what basis would the Nazi's possibly have to be Defender's of the Faith? Also, even if they did claim to be DotF's and people trusted them on that, why would people join the SS?

 

[BigWillyG]

How do the NAZIS handle the Protestant/Catholic divide in Germany?

 

[Kongzilla]

I meant SS as an example for the overseas division.

 

[whitecrow]

Well you have the issue that Hitler very much disliked the Church and was very much into Mysticism and the occult..

IIRC it was Himmler, not Hitler who was big on occultism. Nazis actually suppressed and outlawed certain esoteric and occult groups

 

[Cook]

IIRC it was Himmler, not Hitler who was big on occultism. Nazis actually suppressed and outlawed certain esoteric and occult groups

But, but...

 

[Marshal Tito]

How do the NAZIS handle the Protestant/Catholic divide in Germany?

Possibly they could simply include in all Christians in a generic way-which may help in the Eastern Front.

At least one Nazi marching song from this period ("Sieg Heil Viktoria") uses religious imagery:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_songs#Sieg_Heil_Viktoria:

Wir ruhen und wir rasten nicht
Ade, ade, ade,
Bis daß die Satansbrut zerbricht,
Ade, ade, ade,
Es geht um Deutschlands Gloria,
Gloria, Gloria,
Sieg Heil! Sieg Heil! Viktoria
Sieg Heil! Viktoria!

We don't rest or stop,
good-bye, good-bye, good-bye,
Until the spawn of Satan breaks,
good-bye, good-bye, good-bye,
It is about Germany's Glory,
Glory, Glory,
Hail Victory! Hail Victory! Victory!
Hail Victory! Victory!

 

[Shaby]

The Nazis as defenders of God or having anything similar to this concept would not be Nazis. At least not in a sense we know them. Granted, the definition of Nazism would probably change in this timeline.

There is no way Nazi ideology, as perceived by Hitler, would tolerate any outside moral authority able to pass judgment on their actions. Hitler concocted an ideology that was a world-view. In theory, anything could be explained using basic tenants of National-Socialism. Admitting God into the equation would mean that supreme moral authority does not rest with the Fuehrer, but an outside entity.

The ultimate goal of Nazism was to eliminate any other alternative to Nazi world-view, including church(es). As long as you have a book that purports to be the ultimate source of all morality and presents an alternative model of human behavior (alternative to Nazism, that is) it is going to be intolerable and in direct contradiction with basic principle of Nazism - the Fuehrer principle. Besides, Hitler wanted to supplant Christianity of both varieties with the worship of the Race/state (personified in him) and Nazi ideology as the ultimate determinant of what is right and wrong.

An ideology based on 'Defense of God' as its ultimate goal would not be as successful in Germany (or anywhere in Europe, for that matter).