Napoleon and Robert Fulton

So, it is known that in 1803 Robert Fulton offered a project of steamboat to Napoleon Bonaparte. However, Emperor declined the idea.

But what if Napoleon agreed? As far as I know, Fulton also had a project of first submarines. So, assuming that Napoleon hired Fulton, would France be able to gain naval superiority over Britain and beat their dearest enemies?
 
Steam propulsion's not an I Win button; not yet. Needs a hell of a lot of polishing first.

Part of the reason Napoleon turned it down, as I remember reading, is that Fulton basically gave a showman's presentation to someone who not only was a consummate showman himself and could see through all the tricks, but a serious practical man underneath.

Fulton completely blew the pitch; grossly oversold it, when a more realistic appraisal of strengths, weaknesses and what was still to be done might have got Napoleon interested enough to take him up on it.

The advantage of steam is it's weather independence; sailing against wind and tide is easy. Come and go in any circumstances, haul off lee shores at will, tactical manoeuvre is no longer wind dependent.

On the other side it's going to be a long time before ships can be completely dependent on steam, ~two generations, maybe, because the downside is that early steam engines are woefully inefficient, not really capable of much beyond harbour manoeuvring.

Hybrid sail plus steam is going to be the way to go for a good many years yet (well into the 1890's IRL), and Fulton would have done well to admit that.

Which means you're looking for tactical circumstances, combat situations that can benefit from the introduction of steam, and you need serious time to refit conventional line of battleships with auxilliary steam engines, and train engineers in their use and officers in steam tactics.

The invasion of Britain is an obvious one- but in 1805? You have to be kidding. A squadron might be ready, half a dozen of the line refitted, by Aix Roads, maybe. And that was a complete debacle thanks to conspicuous command cowardice on both sides.

You need new men for the new ships, and that could be transfers from the heroic to a fault Grand Army- what would Michel Ney do in command of a steam line of battle ship?- and that might be a bigger transformation than steam engines, actually.
 
The invasion of Britain is an obvious one

Not only an invasion. Yeah, you are undeniably right in what you have said above. But would that have helped Napoleon to secure his naval positions, get in thicker touch with french territories in America, avoid failure of Continental System?
 

Alcsentre Calanice

Gone Fishin'
So, it is known that in 1803 Robert Fulton offered a project of steamboat to Napoleon Bonaparte. However, Emperor declined the idea.

But what if Napoleon agreed? As far as I know, Fulton also had a project of first submarines. So, assuming that Napoleon hired Fulton, would France be able to gain naval superiority over Britain and beat their dearest enemies?

France needs time. Even steam ships aren't the wunderwaffe some think of. And the Britons are going to react and build their one steam ships.

But I'm pretty sure that after a victoriy in Russia 1812/13, Napoleon is going to create a big fleet using all the money Europe can provide.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
They would be helpful as blockade breakers, however

They would be helpful as blockade breakers, however ... to help push the "distant, storm-tossed ships" a little farther off shore when runners are departing, at least.

And there is a potential "shock" value to the first engagement, if it ends in success for the French....

Best,
 
The first thing that comes to mind almost certainly wouldn't actually help; with steam, icebreakers are at least within the horizon of possibility, which could result in Baltic ports being open for far more of the year- not sure how that helps enforce restrictions on trade though.

Coastal patrol vessels, never far from home, could become much more shoreproof than before, and make smuggling and the landing of spies that much more hazardous- but considering how much of that was unofficially winked at, and the state of customs (relatively honest on the French side but stretched desperately thin; bought off, totally unsupported by the local magistrates or beaten into acquiescence on the British)- this is a bandage over a gaping wound;

that wound being the rest of Europe's unwillingness to do anything with the Continental System except pretend they were going along with it. The prestige of sailing against wind and tide and harnessing the forces of nature may buy more support for France, which would be much more help plugging the gaps than the actual customs gunboats would.
 
It's going to face similar problems France's Navy had in OTL. Basically, having to build up from scratch and lacking experienced and skilled sailsman to lead the new navy. These problems are probably going to be even worse than OTL due to the technology involved being new and it's going to take time to teach people how to build new ships and the steam engines for them. I can see a few being built here and there, but nothing too overwhelming and I can't see it changing the course of the Napoleonic Wars too much.
 
France needs time. Even steam ships aren't the wunderwaffe some think of. And the Britons are going to react and build their one steam ships.

But I'm pretty sure that after a victoriy in Russia 1812/13, Napoleon is going to create a big fleet using all the money Europe can provide.

I know they do need time. And eben thougn steamboats and protosubmarines do not magically solve all of Napoleon's troubles, the major question is whether it will help to deal with British or to weaken their dominance.
 
As far as I know, during the Revolutionary years French government had an idea of attacking Ireland in order to support United Irishmen uprising. But then one of the most horrible storms of century has occured. Well, weather has ruined many plans of attacking England.

Napoleon has inspired an interest fo Egyptian culture. Can he do the same go Gaelic?
 

Driftless

Donor
They would be helpful as blockade breakers, however ... to help push the "distant, storm-tossed ships" a little farther off shore when runners are departing, at least.

And there is a potential "shock" value to the first engagement, if it ends in success for the French....

Best,

Particularly if the French can time their sorties to coincide with a relative calm, then whatever weather gauge advantage goes to them.
 
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Saphroneth

Banned
As far as I know, during the Revolutionary years French government had an idea of attacking Ireland in order to support United Irishmen uprising. But then one of the most horrible storms of century has occured. Well, weather has ruined many plans of attacking England.

Napoleon has inspired an interest fo Egyptian culture. Can he do the same go Gaelic?
We don't call it Divine Wind, quite the opposite - we call it "bloody weather" ;)
 

TFSmith121

Banned
True that...

[QUOTE[/I]=Driftless;10925189]Particularly if the French can time their sorties to coincide with a relatively calm, then whatever weather gauge advantage goes to them.[/QUOTE]

True that..

Demologos was not a war winner by herself, but at the correct time, she can run rings - even at 5 knots - against a ship dependent on sails or sweeps.

Best,
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
The issue with Fultons Catamaran designs is that they were only really meant for coastal use, they'd be great for defending the French against raids, but without some serious design changes, they'd be less effective against British Ships in open water.

Even if they were adapted for deep water, if they were anything like Fultons designs IOTL, they may have had wind-independence, but when there is a wind, sailing ships can outrun them, and circumvent them.

Combine the risks of having the steam boiler on a ship with a gunpowder store, that could increase the chance of the ship being destroyed, and its limited advantages, I'm doubtful Napoleon would use them.

HOWEVER - that said, lets assume Napoleon does build some - I'm not sure he'd have any great advantage with them, unless he focused on using them as combined sail-ships. Give them a sail to give them a more typical speed, and then when needed, have them drastically alter course, ramming ships with a specialised hull - that would seriously mess up British battle strategies.

So potentially the French may think of Fulton as an innovative scientist, who helped Napoleon control the seas, and Napoleon could increase his chances of enforcing the Continental System. If we take this further, because there was impressive success, then after expanding these forces for Napoleon, Fulton may end up inadvertently helping the Americans if they still attempt to invade Canada whilst Britain's Navy is getting battered. (Arguably, with their abilities proven in battle, or popular, the Americans may well build some of these models themselves). With weaker logistics, the British will have a harder time supplying themselves in Canada.

An interesting possibility would be that if Napoleon is confident that he could project power across the ocean, he could work with the Americans - taking Quebec, in exchange for assistance in any invasion of Canada. The Quebecois are happy, the Americans get more strength (due to American ingenuity) and Britain gets a bloody nose.

Admittedly, in the short term, Napoleon is going to have to redirect resources, but if a successful hybrid is made - and the British are unable to duplicate them - in the long term Napoleon can transform his navy - he just needs to ensure he has enough wood and coal to power the ships.

TL;DR - Give him a fast ship, and an impressive victory or three, and you could see the Naval war change. He may still invade Russia though, which no amount of steamships are going to help with.
 
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