Mussolini dies in 1938
- Thread starter VVD0D95
- Start date
The post war world (let’s say it ends up roughly the same way) will definitely be interesting. What will a surviving fascist Italy do in the Cold War? Would it be more influential?
Because it's not ready for war, and almost everyone in the high command knows it.
But, everyone, Mussolini, Stalin, Joe Kennedy, Pierre Q. Publique included, thought the war was pretty much over at the time Italy joined in.
With hindsight it quite easy to say Italy should have stayed out. But from the perspective in 1940, France has just fallen and Britain also looks to be on the ropes . So why not join for quick and cheap gains, if your going to be fighting for only a few months max ?
"I only need a few thousand dead to sit at the peace conference as a man who has fought."
Balbo would need to overcome inertia to reduce support for Franco. Albania was already a satellite to a degree. Even not invading may require a little more exertion than invading.
Because Italo Balbo hated the Germans! He disapproved of the racial laws and argued that Italy should side with GB.
November 1941 as it's low hanging fruit for the British.
I think Balbo sets up a Latin Axis with the Iberians and Vichy state as a counter balance to the commie collaborating, lying Hitler. Sets up Italian dominance in the Western Med and non-interference in their African dependencies for armed neutrality and non-aggression with the British.
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I don't think he even knew about it until after it was done. He was in Libya at the time.
I don't know but when he was informed of the formal alliance with Germany he exclaimed *You will all end up shinning the shoes of the German's" so I would imagine so.
I have to wonder exactly how "accidental" his accidental shooting down was. He was in a trimotor bomber over Tobruk and the RAF didn't have any of those,
I have to wonder exactly how "accidental" his accidental shooting down was. He was in a trimotor bomber over Tobruk and the RAF didn't have any of those,
thaddeus
Donor
the Vichy regime is under the control of Nazi Germany, how could they sign onto any alliance? and would they want to, the territorial aims of both Spain and Italy were ( largely) French territories? although there is a certain logic to a Latin Bloc, do not see how one could be pulled together with such disparate interests.
can imagine a more likely scenario being Italy, thinking they have a greenlight from GB after the attack on the French fleet and later Dakar, moving on Tunisia and/or French Somaliland (Djibouti)
Balbo can sustain a policy of non-aggression with the British even after the British are grabbing low-hanging fruit (Ethiopia) the Italians claim to own?
The British are attacking Italian-occupied Ethiopia if it's Balbo-led government has not deviated from neutrality in the Anglo-Franco-German war?
Please explain.
GeographyDude
Gone Fishin'
And many possibilities on whether this works or not!
Maybe yes, maybe not, maybe if the fascists in question have sympathetic victims? Maybe if they have reasonably impressive economic growth?
A lot of factors in play!
Nov 1941 was when GB liberated Ethiopia from the Italians in OTL. I think that is what he meant.
If Britain invade the italian colony of Abyssinia, well Balbo or whoever is in power will DoW the UK...but i doubt that anyone in London will be so stupid to throw Italy to Germany side for just flexing his muscle.
Regarding neutrality, it's very probable that the italian goverment will accept any bribe the UK will give to remain neutral, rationalize the situation as with France down, the British will need a new ally postwar as everybody in Rome except a little group of Germanophiles will want try to keep some distance from Germany
TDM
Kicked
Germanies' overall big problem in Barbarossa is not a lack of men/tanks. They start of with numerical superiority, and once they lose it which they do pretty quick they're losing it by far more than what Afrika corp can supply. (as pointed out the DAK doesn't get above approx. 10 German divs even later, so compared to Barbarossa's opening 160+ divs they're not adding much.
Germany has two big problems in Barbarossa one with a flawed goal based on a flawed understanding of the situation, and the second with operational issues if the plan doesn't go exactly as planned in the time frame that's planned. (and so the former impacts on the latter) neither is improved by a few more Divs.
the issue with the extra forces of Rommel and the Afrika Corp allows Germany to take Moscow idea is:
1).Moscow was never a primary goal of the plan, it at times was moved up the priority list as the actual goal (destroy the red army) looked less and less achievable as time went on but Moscow as possible primary stepping stone to victory went by the wayside fairly early on in planning (even if some figures had been more pro the idea and had kept it mind). Ultimately the German attitude towards Moscow was "we should already have won by the time we're taking Moscow", not "taking Moscow is how we win". So no one in German high command is going to take those extra divs in May41 and decide with these extra forces we can now take Moscow.
2). You'd still have to get those* extra forces to Moscow and in a condition to take it. two big problems with this firstly the logistical and terrain issues that are still there (in fact made worse by feeding another 10 divs into it). But also the forward panzer divs which were always the minority of the total German forces had instead of successfully avoiding head on fights in a short fast campaign (as per Blitzkrieg) had to fairly often fight through Soviet lines and had been doing so for months. Now they had done so and won those engagements, but after a few months of near constant fighting and losses they were seriously depleted.
Frankly the Afrika corp risk just being more tanks and troops stuck in the mud and waiting for fuel and counting their casualties, while writing home about how the red army should have run out of troops a month ago so where the fuck are all these Russians coming from and why are they still fighting.
*it doesn't have to be precisely those Divs under Rommel doing it, but the general point is that bit extra at the start allows it to happen.
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