Mussolini becomes president of the USA?

[marathag]

and frankly i doubt that they can pass through the Alpine defensive line without committing a lot of their forces

That was mostly from the Moose and his big public works campaign, so in this TL, they will be of lesser quality
That said, getting thru the Alps without the forts still is a rough task, At the end of the Great War, Italy got the defensive lines they wanted.

 

[marathag]

Well, American democratic tradition and institutions were too powerful for this kind of coup.

They were at their weakest after a few years of the Depression, but the Moose I don't see going for a direct coup. In Italy, he was asked to become PM with dictatorial powers for one year, at first.

In the USA, think on this
But when fascism comes it will not be in the form of an anti-American movement or pro-Hitler bund, practicing disloyalty. Nor will it come in the form of a crusade against war. It will appear rather in the luminous robes of flaming patriotism; it will take some genuinely indigenous shape and color, and it will spread only because its leaders, who are not yet visible, will know how to locate the great springs of public opinion and desire and the streams of thought that flow from them and will know how to attract to their banners leaders who can command the support of the controlling minorities in American public life. The danger lies not so much in the would-be Fuhrers who may arise, but in the presence in our midst of certainly deeply running currents of hope and appetite and opinion. The war upon fascism must be begun there.

 

[Thomas1195]

To quote an old post of mine (dealing with "what if an adult Mussolini emigrates," a much more plausible scenario--he actually did consider emigration-- than "Mussolini is born in America, somehow grows up to have the same kind of politics he did in Italy in OTL despite the vastly different environment, and eventually becomes president?")

***
Meanwhile, in the absence of Mussolini, would something like Fascism still come to power in Italy, led by d'Annunzio perhaps? Of course a d'Annunzio-led Italy would be rather peculiar even compared with Mussolini's: "The constitution [of Fiume] established a corporatist state, with nine corporations to represent the different sectors of the economy (workers, employers, professionals), and a tenth (D'Annunzio's invention) to represent the "superior" human beings (heroes, poets, prophets, supermen). The Carta also declared that music was the fundamental principle of the state..." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriele_D%27Annunzio

Also, given that he was an Italian, there would be greater probability of a Democratic Benny than both a Socialist Benny or a Republican Benny.

 

[David T]

Also, given that he was an Italian, there would be greater probability of a Democratic Benny than both a Socialist Benny or a Republican Benny.

To quote an old post of mine:

***

It's more complicated than that.

"in the pre‑Depression years, Italian‑American voters cast their ballots for the candidates of the party in power at the local level. « Little Italies » in Republican strongholds usually delivered large majorities for the GOP. For instance, on U. S. Secretary of Treasury Andrew Mellon’s turf in Pittsburgh (Murray), Republican presidential candidate Calvin Coolidge received 70.5 percent of the Italian‑American vote in 1924. Similarly, when Philadelphia’s Republican boss William Vare ran for the U.S. Senate two year later (Salter), he carried the local Italian‑American community by a 97.4 landslide (Pennsylvania State Manual, 1925‑27).

"For the same reason, however, the cities where the Democratic party controlled most positions under the spoils system in the municipal administrations and operated effective machines produced Democratic pluralities among Italian Americans in the 1920s as well. Boston had been the seat of a powerful Democratic organization since the late XIXth century and the local « Little Italy » went Democratic even during the decade of the Republican hegemony at the national level that followed World War I, with the only exception of the 1920 backlash at Wilson’s foreign policy (Martellone, Una Little Italy 495‑569 ; Blodgett). After carrying the Italian‑American community in East Boston with 53.7 percent of the vote and the « Little Italy » in the North End with 70.1 in 1920, the GOP received only 33.1 percent and 38.7 percent, respectively, in the contest for the White House four years later. In those two districts, therefore, both Smith and Roosevelt built up their 1928 and 1932 majorities among Italian‑American voters (respectively, 92.6 percent and 94.5 percent in East Boston and 94.5 percent and 93.2 percent in the North End) from Democratic John Davis’ 1924 pluralities...

"Political coercion of workers on the part of their employers, who usually sided with the GOP, added to machine politics and the « full dinner pail » slogan in causing Italian Americans’ pre‑Depression Republican allegiance. The John A. Roebling and Sons Inc. company, a wire‑manufacturing plant in Trenton, New Jersey, successfully drummed up the Italian‑American vote for the GOP in the 1920s by providing jobs for the members of the city’s « Little Italy » who participated in Republican activities and dismissing those who did not (Peroni 73‑74). Similarly, in the same decade, subservience to the partisan orientation of their employers led the Italian‑American workers of the Scovill Manufacturing Company, a metal industry in Waterbury, Connecticut, to register as Republican voters and to contribute to the election of the chairperson of their company to the state assembly on the ticket of the GOP (Fasce 236‑37)..."

https://transatlantica.revues.org/212?lang=en

In short, before Al Smith and FDR, the Italian American vote was not by any means solidly Democratic--and even in Democratic Boston, bitter resentment of Wilson's foreign policy led to a landslide Republican victory in Italian-American neighbothoods in 1920.

(People tend to forget that there were *Republican* urban machines in the pre-New Deal era. But they did exist; they dominated Pennsylvania and Rhode Island, and made Chicago a competitive city, where Bill Thompson with his unabashedly "wet" views on Prohibition, did very well with the Italian-American vote.)

 

[Thomas1195]

To quote an old post of mine:

***

It's more complicated than that.

"in the pre‑Depression years, Italian‑American voters cast their ballots for the candidates of the party in power at the local level. « Little Italies » in Republican strongholds usually delivered large majorities for the GOP. For instance, on U. S. Secretary of Treasury Andrew Mellon’s turf in Pittsburgh (Murray), Republican presidential candidate Calvin Coolidge received 70.5 percent of the Italian‑American vote in 1924. Similarly, when Philadelphia’s Republican boss William Vare ran for the U.S. Senate two year later (Salter), he carried the local Italian‑American community by a 97.4 landslide (Pennsylvania State Manual, 1925‑27).

"For the same reason, however, the cities where the Democratic party controlled most positions under the spoils system in the municipal administrations and operated effective machines produced Democratic pluralities among Italian Americans in the 1920s as well. Boston had been the seat of a powerful Democratic organization since the late XIXth century and the local « Little Italy » went Democratic even during the decade of the Republican hegemony at the national level that followed World War I, with the only exception of the 1920 backlash at Wilson’s foreign policy (Martellone, Una Little Italy 495‑569 ; Blodgett). After carrying the Italian‑American community in East Boston with 53.7 percent of the vote and the « Little Italy » in the North End with 70.1 in 1920, the GOP received only 33.1 percent and 38.7 percent, respectively, in the contest for the White House four years later. In those two districts, therefore, both Smith and Roosevelt built up their 1928 and 1932 majorities among Italian‑American voters (respectively, 92.6 percent and 94.5 percent in East Boston and 94.5 percent and 93.2 percent in the North End) from Democratic John Davis’ 1924 pluralities...

"Political coercion of workers on the part of their employers, who usually sided with the GOP, added to machine politics and the « full dinner pail » slogan in causing Italian Americans’ pre‑Depression Republican allegiance. The John A. Roebling and Sons Inc. company, a wire‑manufacturing plant in Trenton, New Jersey, successfully drummed up the Italian‑American vote for the GOP in the 1920s by providing jobs for the members of the city’s « Little Italy » who participated in Republican activities and dismissing those who did not (Peroni 73‑74). Similarly, in the same decade, subservience to the partisan orientation of their employers led the Italian‑American workers of the Scovill Manufacturing Company, a metal industry in Waterbury, Connecticut, to register as Republican voters and to contribute to the election of the chairperson of their company to the state assembly on the ticket of the GOP (Fasce 236‑37)..."

https://transatlantica.revues.org/212?lang=en

In short, before Al Smith and FDR, the Italian American vote was not by any means solidly Democratic--and even in Democratic Boston, bitter resentment of Wilson's foreign policy led to a landslide Republican victory in Italian-American neighbothoods in 1920.

(People tend to forget that there were *Republican* urban machines in the pre-New Deal era. But they did exist; they dominated Pennsylvania and Rhode Island, and made Chicago a competitive city, where Bill Thompson with his unabashedly "wet" views on Prohibition, did very well with the Italian-American vote.)

Do you have any information about how Italian-Americans often voted during the 1900s-1910s? If Benny was to enter politics, he would likely do so during the Progressive Era.

 

[David T]

Do you have any information about how Italian-Americans often voted during the 1900s-1910s? If Benny was to enter politics, he would likely do so during the Progressive Era.

It was a mixed picture. In some cities, Italian resentment of Irish domination of local Democratic machines led Italian voters to favor the Republicans. In others, the Democratic machines realized they had to appeal to the new Italian American vote. And as I noted there were cities with dominant Republican machines, and in them, Italians tended to vote Republican. Finally, sometimes an individual, like Theodore Roosevelt in 1912, proved attractive to Italian voters. From Joseph P. O'Grady (ed.) The Immigrants' Influence on Wilson's Peace Policies, pp.. 112-133 (from John B. Duff's chapter "The Italians" here is a summary:

 

[lukedalton]

That was mostly from the Moose and his big public works campaign, so in this TL, they will be of lesser quality
That said, getting thru the Alps without the forts still is a rough task, At the end of the Great War, Italy got the defensive lines they wanted.

Benny or not Benny the alpine defensive line will happen, it was more or less a common strategy of all the european nation and frankly without the fascist the economy, the general quality of the armed forces and the management of the pubblic work will be much better

 

[Starforce]

I can see that Mussolini here would gradually turn up the heat on American politics and cement himself as the center piece in America. Doing it gradually so nobody notices what he is up to, and when they do it will be far to late as he has cemented his 'reign'.

 

[marathag]

If Benny was to enter politics, he would likely do so during the Progressive Era.

My ideas would that he would be involved with the IWW after leaving the AFL, until the US entry of the Great War where he would leave Socialism behind for Nationalism.
This would as OTL, be a marked departure. Rarely do people go all in on 180 degree conversions of belief. But he did.
So the Bennie that protested against the War with Spain and gaining Territories and the imperialism that entailed from possession of them would completely different by 1917

 

[Thomas1195]

My ideas would that he would be involved with the IWW after leaving the AFL, until the US entry of the Great War where he would leave Socialism behind for Nationalism.
This would as OTL, be a marked departure. Rarely do people go all in on 180 degree conversions of belief. But he did.
So the Bennie that protested against the War with Spain and gaining Territories and the imperialism that entailed from possession of them would completely different by 1917

It depends a lot on where his family would go. If they went to Boston or whatever cities where Democratic machines were powerful, he would most likely join the Democrats from the beginning.

 

[Halcyon Dayz]

Without a fascist Italy as a role model there might not even be a Nazi Germany.

 

[marathag]

It depends a lot on where his family would go. If they went to Boston or whatever cities where Democratic machines were powerful, he would most likely join the Democrats from the beginning.

The War shifted Bennies beliefs completely, so whatever he was before the Great War, it would be the other afterwards, where he shifted from far Left Socialism to far Right Nationalism.

Things track differently in the US than Italy, that was almost on the verge of civil war with streetfights and failed economy.
US has the Roaring '20s, with the dark side of Farm failures and growth of Organized Crime.
Oh, and the Klan. It was present on both Parties, and influenced both.

I don't think the Moose 'Born in the USA' would have been happy with either D or R, even that both had Liberal and Conservative Wings at this time.
He always wanted to be a Man of Action, and rising in the Normal parties taken too long, would look at the new parties where he could be a driving force

 

[HansFlamenwerfer]

So another POD turns into IT CANT HAPPEN AND HERE IS WHY AND LETS NOT HANDWAWE IT BECAUSE IM DEEPLY UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THE RESULT.

for fucks sake its alternate history people.

 

[Rich Mullins]

My scenario is this: Mussolini's parents flee Italy because of a crackdown on socialists. Benito would be born in the U.S. and be named Benjamin. Benjamin Mussolini would grow up in New York City and as a teenager would join the Socialist Party. Over time, however, he would become enamored with the burgeoning Progressive Movement and being taken under Teddy Roosevelt's wings would leave the Socialist Party and switch from being a nominal Catholic to being a nominal Protestant. Due to T.R.'s influence and mentorship, Benjamin becomes an influential member of the Republican Party in New York eventually becoming mayor of New York City and governor of New York. When T.R. leaves the Republican Party to form the Progressive Party, Benjamin leaves with him and is made leader of the youth wing of the party. Benjamin retains many socialist ideas, but mixes them with the realities of life in America and with American nationalism. Woodrow Wilson still becomes President in 1913, but the Progressives have a better showing in the election in part due to Benjamin's campaigning in the South and Midwest for T.R. actually shifting Illinois, Ohio, Virginia, and North Carolina into the Progressive camp. After the outbreak of World War 1, the Progressives push for a strong military as a means of preparing to be drawn into the war. T.R. runs again in 1916 defeating Woodrow Wilson and soon thereafter the U.S. joins the war in Europe. On the advice of T.R., Benjamin joins the army and has a short, but distinguished service, being forced to be honorably discharged due to a battlefield injury. Once recovered, T.R. has Benjamin made the leader of a government version of the American Protection League. The socialists and anarchists who refuse to join the Progressives and support the war are arrested and in some cases deported, though many are persuaded or coerced to join the Progressives and the war effort. Upon the death of his Vice President in 1918, T.R. takes the radical action of having Benjamin made Vice President. When T.R. dies in 1919, Benjamin becomes President. He wins election in 1920 with a Progressive-controlled Congress. Using his popularity and control of Congress, he becomes more and more authoritarian. The Republican and Democratic parties become more and more side-lined and the U.S. becomes a de facto one party state. In time, Benjamin is given the official title of President for Life and remains so until his death. He is succeeded by his son and thus starts the Mussolini Dynasty. The U.S. having been transformed into a de facto monarchy despite remaining a republic in name only.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

In 1932 Mussolini takes the lead of Bonus Army and marches on Washington with his veterans and unemployed guys, forcing the Dem President to resign and the Congress to make him Acting President until the new election, that, of course, are a little "corrected" in his favor.
He starts an authoritarian regime that will live until his death in the 1960s...
32 Benedict "Benny" Mussolini (R-New York) 1933-1968

Ignoring the handwaving and generally “ctrl c, ctrl v” nature of the TL, in America is this even possible? Can Congress appoint an “acting President” when there would be a President, Vice-President, President Pro Tempore of the Senate, Secretary of State, etc already in place? Was the bonus army in favour of ripping up the Constitution or the American public in any kind of place to support it if it tried?

 

[fockewulf]

Al Capone vs Benito Mussolini, that would have been interesting.

 

[David T]

Given how brothers (or sisters) can turn out to be quite different from each other, it's amazing how alt-X (who is very unlikely to be genetically identical to X) always has the same personality as X in these scenarios (even disregarding the differences in environment).

Yes, I know it's part of the premise: the Mussolini who is conceived in America (or on the boat) is exactly the same person as the Mussolini of OTL. But every now and then we should remember how unrealistic the premise is.

 

[marathag]

But every now and then we should remember how unrealistic the premise is.

But not ASB material.

Maybe Baby Hitler would have been a great guy had he grown up in Minnesota. Would he try to be an artist? Or really hate the Irish?

Maybe Charlie Manson, growing up in Liverpool may have managed a band that became really famous.

Life is all about opportunities

 

[Deleted member 94680]

But not ASB material.

Personally, I think these “X is born in a different country/decade/gender/ethnicity” TLs are ASB.

 

[Starforce]

My scenario is this: Mussolini's parents flee Italy because of a crackdown on socialists. Benito would be born in the U.S. and be named Benjamin. Benjamin Mussolini would grow up in New York City and as a teenager would join the Socialist Party. Over time, however, he would become enamored with the burgeoning Progressive Movement and being taken under Teddy Roosevelt's wings would leave the Socialist Party and switch from being a nominal Catholic to being a nominal Protestant. Due to T.R.'s influence and mentorship, Benjamin becomes an influential member of the Republican Party in New York eventually becoming mayor of New York City and governor of New York. When T.R. leaves the Republican Party to form the Progressive Party, Benjamin leaves with him and is made leader of the youth wing of the party. Benjamin retains many socialist ideas, but mixes them with the realities of life in America and with American nationalism. Woodrow Wilson still becomes President in 1913, but the Progressives have a better showing in the election in part due to Benjamin's campaigning in the South and Midwest for T.R. actually shifting Illinois, Ohio, Virginia, and North Carolina into the Progressive camp. After the outbreak of World War 1, the Progressives push for a strong military as a means of preparing to be drawn into the war. T.R. runs again in 1916 defeating Woodrow Wilson and soon thereafter the U.S. joins the war in Europe. On the advice of T.R., Benjamin joins the army and has a short, but distinguished service, being forced to be honorably discharged due to a battlefield injury. Once recovered, T.R. has Benjamin made the leader of a government version of the American Protection League. The socialists and anarchists who refuse to join the Progressives and support the war are arrested and in some cases deported, though many are persuaded or coerced to join the Progressives and the war effort. Upon the death of his Vice President in 1918, T.R. takes the radical action of having Benjamin made Vice President. When T.R. dies in 1919, Benjamin becomes President. He wins election in 1920 with a Progressive-controlled Congress. Using his popularity and control of Congress, he becomes more and more authoritarian. The Republican and Democratic parties become more and more side-lined and the U.S. becomes a de facto one party state. In time, Benjamin is given the official title of President for Life and remains so until his death. He is succeeded by his son and thus starts the Mussolini Dynasty. The U.S. having been transformed into a de facto monarchy despite remaining a republic in name only.

Any ideas for what the map will look like? How will Mussolini being president for life of the United States affect the world map and global politics as a whole. America would still support western nations, how would this America under Mussolini handle the Soviet Union? They will probably be much more aggressive.