More British light Armor in early WWII

for the time period in question, use the 18 or 25 pdr field gun, that would have enough AP performance on all interwar tanks, and use a Napier Lion for power
So something like this then, and yes I know it's a S.P.G and not a tank. Dates from 1928. Imagine a division in 1935 equipped with a mix of Birch guns, Vickers Mediums, Vickers E and Infantry carried in armoured halftracks. There's no reason this couldn't have been done except the will to spend the money. It's not as if anything needs to be invented to make it possible, it already exists, and is the logical next step from the Experimental Armoured Force.



 
Last edited:

marathag

Banned
Just calm down a bit.

Pic1.JPG

Panzer II interior doesn’t look much better, does it?

Looks to be a Mk IV

But think of this, the engine bits are behind the bulkhead, driveshaft guarded by fuel tanks and the turret floor.
Much more ergonomic, no spinning shafts or very hot manifolds to get burned on
 

SwampTiger

Banned
for the time period in question, use the 18 or 25 pdr field gun, that would have enough AP performance on all interwar tanks, and use a Napier Lion for power

I think the 18-25 lbr guns would have been considered overkill, literally. The Medium Mk I used the 3 lbr and Armstrong Siddely 90hp V-8. The WWI era tanks used the 6 lbr. I would lean toward the 6 lbr. The Lion probably should have gone to the cruisers instead of the Liberty. Nuffield had the cruiser contract, so Liberty got the nod. The Matilda was not well designed for upgraded guns. The Cruiser Mark I and II should have used something different for an engine. If we are using surplus WW1 aircraft engines, a Wolseley or Hispano v-8 would be good for 150+ hp down-rated for tank use and pool petrol. Use the enlarged Hispano 8F for 180-210 hp in down-rated form. Can we say a Valentine with 200hp and a 6lbr in 1938 replacing the Matilda II and Cruisers I and II. Sweet Valentine!

Either way, we have left the light tanks of the original post.
 
Reviewing the direction the thread has headed, the Vickers 6-ton is actually a medium, front-line tank for the 1930's. The British Army was moving toward a cruiser/infantry tank split. The light tanks would be replaced with armored/scout cars for most reconnaissance duties. If anything, the light tank from the interwar period was dying. The world's armies kept buying them because of their low cost, not because of their effectiveness. Combat power started with the smaller mediums; Vickers 6-ton, LT vz. 35 and 38, T-26, M 11/39 and TP-7. Even these tanks were in the process of replacement with larger tanks.

The Japanese were the only power to utilize the lighter tank/tankette types for more than two years after introduction to combat. The Chinese morass was the only useful combat zone for the smaller light tanks. They faced few anti-tank weapons. The Chinese had almost no armored capability. They were very useful against foot mobile light infantry forces.

Thus, the British use as colonial patrol tanks. The British had no practical reason to add anything larger than the BESA 15mm. A 20mm, low-velocity 1 or 2 lbr or a breech loaded mortar may have been useful, but were not necessary. The Vickers light tanks were faster than anything they were likely to face, and armored against rifle fire. Ideally, the British Army should have dropped anything smaller than 12 tons after 1935. Concentrate on Matilda II and Valentine for infantry support, and Cruiser Mark III development for fast tanks. The British would have done better to work on a dual purpose main tank gun and a reliable/powerful tank engine.

I remember reading that besides cost some countries continued with light tanks and tankettes because of problems with producing larger turret rings that could hold larger guns.

Because the US Cav couldn't have tanks- by Law, they got 'Combat Cars'
800px-M1_Combat_Car.jpg

Instead.

And look at it's illegitimate German great grand son.

300px-Wiesel120mm2.jpg


800px-Wiesel_1_TOW.jpg


Isn't it adorable?
 

SwampTiger

Banned
I remember reading that besides cost some countries continued with light tanks and tankettes because of problems with producing larger turret rings that could hold larger guns.

I think if you can machine turret rings for naval turrets, you can figure out how to do a tank turret. The British did not design the turret to overhang the hull width. The constraint of rail loading gauge limited total tank width, which limited the width of larger tanks, which is not what we have here. The British mounted the gun trunnions inside the turret face, unlike other nations, which mounted them outside. This limited the recoil length of the guns more than other nations. The Matilda used a 54.25 inch turret ring. The Valentine used a 57.7 inch turret ring. The Pz III used a 1.52 meter/60 inch turret ring. The Pz IV used a 1.6 meter/63 inch ring. Remember that you need to move around in the turret and load some rather lengthy cartridges into the gun, while avoiding the violently recoiling gun breech.
 
I see two seats and a ring where the turret basket sits. Plenty of room for post-Depression tankers!

They should make a few dozen of these and use em as part of an new fad exercise/weight loss program. The idea that an extra inch on your waist might make you significantly more likely to be torn apart should be plenty of incentive.
 

marathag

Banned
.
The British mounted the gun trunnions inside the turret face, unlike other nations, which mounted them outside. This limited the recoil length of the guns more than other nations. The Matilda used a 54.25 inch turret ring. The Valentine used a 57.7 inch turret ring. The Pz III used a 1.52 meter/60 inch turret ring. The Pz IV used a 1.6 meter/63 inch ring. Remember that you need to move around in the turret and load some rather lengthy cartridges into the gun, while avoiding the violently recoiling gun breech.

Soviets got the 76mm in the T-34 with a two man turret with 56", by having the trunnions outside of the ring, plus no internal mantlet, that took up even more interior space

Soviets did this to a L-L Matilda
Screen-Shot-2016-08-15-at-14.22.12.png
to get a 76mm ZiS-5 from a KV-1 in there
 

Driftless

Donor
That positioning of the mantlet and the trunnions was a conscious operational decision by the British. You'd have to have a plausible reason to shift them off that idea, then the engineering comes easier.
 

marathag

Banned
That positioning of the mantlet and the trunnions was a conscious operational decision by the British. You'd have to have a plausible reason to shift them off that idea, then the engineering comes easier.

Stop eating lead paint chips with wood alcohol chaser.

Workshops had that idea in North Africa
3779-a1.jpg


Take M4 Mantlet, torch a hole in the front or a Churchill IV, and Bingo, 75mm gun in turret.

Problem was, they didn't manufacture any tank with an external mantlet till 1944
 
Looks to be a Mk IV

But think of this, the engine bits are behind the bulkhead, driveshaft guarded by fuel tanks and the turret floor.
Much more ergonomic, no spinning shafts or very hot manifolds to get burned on
You are right, small screen. On phone on first glance Looked like my Pz II I built years ago. You found right pic at the end. Thanks.
 

Driftless

Donor
Stop eating lead paint chips with wood alcohol chaser.

Workshops had that idea in North Africa
3779-a1.jpg


Take M4 Mantlet, torch a hole in the front or a Churchill IV, and Bingo, 75mm gun in turret.

Problem was, they didn't manufacture any tank with an external mantlet till 1944

The guys in the field figured it out, but the gentlemen who sat in offices making decisions didn't for too long - that's my point. Get those bigshots in command to change their minds earlier.
 
Also with UK tanks you'd have to override the insane 'HE shells are Royal Artillery ONLY!!!' madness that caused issues with the RAC pre war too.
 
Top